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[Stranger]

The ten commandments are not a universal basis for morality, or even a good basis for morality. This might seem like an obvious premise, but there are plenty of Christians that argue the ten commandments are the basis of morality because they believe objective morality exists. The only problem is, only a few of the commandments actually correlate to morality.

One claim is that the law is written on everyone's heart, and part of that law is the ten commandments.

So there's a few different versions, but I'll use the one I was raised with, which would be the protestant version.

Let's start with you shall have no other gods before me.

So there's a problem right off the bat. If you assume this commandment to only apply to the Christian god, than over 70% of the planet is in constant violation of this every second of every day.

If the law is written on people's hearts, how are people this okay with constantly breaking this law?

But perhaps we can live by the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law. Maybe this is just a law supporting monotheism.

So first we have another problem, considering the majority of religions before Christianity were polytheistic, apparently writing the law on people's hearts took a while.

And even if we ignore how part of the reason monotheism spread as much as it did is because Christianity and Islam were taking over large parts of the world literally by force, there's still the issue of the billions of people who are still not monotheistic today and see no issue of not being monotheistic (i.e Hindus, buddhists, and non religious)

Once again the argument that god personally implanted morality on people doesn't really work here.

Let's move on to number two. No graven images.

Okay time out. You are telling me the religion with more images of it's main god being spread around than any other is the one with the rule about no graven images? What's with all those crosses? Don't you think that might fall under the category of graven images?

Of course I jest, but the commandment does go on to say you shall not worship them or serve them. I mean, I feel the whole Catholic concept of saints kind of spits in the face of this whole not worshiping graven images thing, but that's just my baptist roots talking.

But my point is, this one has the same problem as number one. The vast majority of the planet is in violation and doesn't care at all. There's no pricking of the conscience, nobody really feels like they are doing something evil, it's just common practice for people to routinely violate this commandment.

Let's move to you shall not take your lords name in vain.

This one is entertaining as gods name as an expletive is one of the most popular expletives out there. You'll even find plenty of Christians who do it (although admittedly they probably feel bad about it). Now this commandment isn't as simple as just not saying gods name wrong, but for the sake of brevity, I'm going to leave it there. Now unlike the other ones, we don't have most of the planet constantly violating it, but we do have most of the planet (including probably more than a few Christians) not caring.

Honoring the Sabbath is a good one. For this one I'm going to ignore my usual comments about how most of the world doesn't care about this commandment. I'm also going to ignore Christians who don't go to church, because it's obvious how much they don't care about this commandment. I'm going to focus more on Christians who do go to church, but that's only time on sunday they honor the sabbath. Many Christians consider themselves good Christians if they go to church regularly, but how many Christians go to church, and that's the end of their sabbath honoring?

By the way, I'd like to mention how we are almost halfway through and everything so far has been about god. I mean if you aren't convinced that a god exists then why would your moral code have anything to do with how you treat what you believe to be a fictional character? So far, the whole idea of the law being written on everyone's heart.

Okay, time to get to the good stuff, like the ones you might actually remember. Honor your father and mother.

If I may steal from the late great George Carlin. Some parents deserve respect. Most of them don't. Period.

I know bringing a comedian into this makes it look like I'm not taking this seriously, but honestly I feel like his approach is more logical than this commandment. Parents do not automatically deserve respect. It needs to be earned. Do you believe that a father or mother who beat their children and/or horrifically abuse them and scar them for life deserve to be honored? I don't. This is why making blanket statements like honor your father and mother isn't a good idea.

Also, as much as I love Carlin's words, I guess I should point out there is a difference between respect and honor. I respect my father, I respect what he has accomplished. I don't think he is worthy of honor (although that's a different story)

My mother on the other hand, she can have all the honor in the world. My mother is saint dammit. Wait, I don't believe in saints. Okay, My mother is a really nice person dammit.

I probably went a little too personal there. I digress. Okay let's move on to the big one, the one you've all been waiting for. Thou shalt not kill.

Can I just point out that it took us 6 commandments to reach just one commandment that the vast majority of people agree with? Once again this whole god has written the law on man's heart, and objective morality comes from god is getting a little hard to swallow.

Almost every single society on earth has rules against killing. Not just now, but throughout history. It's almost like you didn't need a god to tell you that in the first place. Oh right, god has written his law in our hearts. That's why out of ten commandments it took 6 before we found one that isn't being constantly violated on daily basis by everyone. I'm guessing more of you have dishonored your parents than have killed people.

Although to be fair Jesus did point out that if you are angry with someone that's the same thing as murder. So I guess we are all murderers.

You shall not commit adultery. Not quite as universal as the no killing rule, but personally I rate this one higher than the honor your father and mother.

Once again to steal from George Carlin, this has more to do with honesty and remaining faithful, and I feel would work better phrased that way. I don't necessarily disagree with it. There's nothing wrong with keeping your promises and honoring your commitments. Although, if I can go a quick tangent about biblical marriage that I don't agree with, I don't think divorce should only be permissible in cases of infidelity (another one of Jesus's teachings I'm not a fan of). Not all marriage are entered into in a reasonable state of mind, and sometimes relationships can be toxic. Yes, you should definitely try to work at it, but you shouldn't stay in a relationship where the other partner is physically or emotionally abusive for example.

Thou shall not steal. This is another rule that almost every single society has. It's why murder and steal and adultery are always the commandments people think of first. They're the only ones that almost everyone agrees with.

Thou shalt not lie. Sounds good in theory, but that's not actually the commandment. The actual commandment is this: Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor. It's basically a commandment against perjury. Which don't get me wrong, pejury is definitely that should be outlawed, but does it really belong in the ten commandments? I mean, no pejury belongs in the ten commandments, but no rape didn't make the list? You could argue that rape is covered under the adultery commandment, or under the stealing commandment, but you can argue that any of the commandments are covered under any of the others. For example, killing could be covered under no stealing, as it would be stealing life from someone else. Stealing is the covered under coveting. That's not even an argument, that's just a fact. You can't steal something without coveting it. Come to think of it, isn't adultery covered under not coveting your neighbors wife? Honestly, you could just take killing, stealing, adultery and just roll them all into coveting. If don't kill, don't steal, and don't commit adultery each get their own commandment, I don't see what's wrong with making thou shalt not rape a commandment.

So, as final criticism of the final commandment, can I point out how thou shalt not covet is just a stupid idea? once again to steal from George Carlin, Coveting is how capitalism works. To make a rule against it, seems kind of dumb.

So of the ten commandments only four of them are ones that most everyone agrees with. And those four existed before the ten commandments did.

I mean, I suppose if you include honor your father and mother we could make it five. However not to get into any stereotypes, but I feel like Japan is the only one that really cares about honoring your mother and father. And they aren't even Christian.

But you can't deny that at least half of the commandments not only do most people not follow, most people don't care that they don't follow them.

The only ones that are any good are ones that are already included in almost every other morality system that exists. And those are less than half of the commandments.

Jesus said the first and greatest commandment was to love the lord your god with all your heart, soul strength and mind. So if you love the wrong god, or you are not convinced that a god exists then you are already automatically guilty of breaking the first and greatest commandment. That's not a good system of morality.

[jimwalton]

As others have said, they aren't supposed to be a universal basis for morality. The decalogue isn't primarily a legal code or a moral once, but a statement of covenant policy. Most of them (the 10) are in statement form rather than casuistic (case law) form. They occur in the 2nd person, and often without qualification, without sanctions, and without promised rewards. They are so general as to be virtually unenforceable through the judicial system. They are examples of how to respond to the grace of God (their deliverance from Egypt) through love for him and love for others. The 10 are more like a bill of rights than a list of commands: Don't do anything to threaten the covenant community and the presence of God in their midst.

They were all written for the covenant community (God's people), not the world at large. They were never meant to be the basis of objective morality. Objective morality comes from the nature and character of God, not from a list like the 10 Words.

A brief rebuttal to your long post:

#1: No other gods before me. A claim of exclusiveness, authority. There is only 1 true God, and so yes, 70% of the world is in error. There is no pantheon, no assembly of gods, no sharing of power. For God's people, their worship is to be focus like a laser on the true God, ignoring all false competitors. How are people OK with breaking it? People are rebellious and disobedient. The law is written on the hearts of God's people. While everyone has a conscience, the "law on the heart" refers to something else.

#2: No idols. Yep, the Catholics have to dance to justify this one in their practice. I won't make excuses for them. The rest of the world, too. The main issue is God's dignity. Worship must reflect a proper view of God.

#3: Lord's name in vain. "This one is entertaining as gods name as an expletive is one of the most popular expletives out there." True, and people will be held accountable for it. Any irreverent use of God's name denigrates his character.

#4: Sabbath. The principle behind this command is to stop being so self-centered and take stock of God's role in the big picture of your life and the world.

You're right that the 1st 4 commands are about our relationship with God, and the last 6 are about our relationship with each other. 2 & 5 have to do with authority, 2 & 6-7-8 have to do with dignity, 3 & 9 have to do with commitment, and 4 & 10 have to do with rights.

#5: Honor parents. Of course parents don't automatically deserve respect. The context contains the assumption that the parents are godly people living in obedience to the covenant. The command doesn't apply when the parents are mentally and physically abusive. The command provides the key to real social stability. We obey our parents because that's how we learn to obey God. If we learn how to rightly submit to just authority, it translates into our relationship with God. Parents are supposed to be the visible representatives of God for the exerting of authority that is righteous. But parents who act evilly lose the right to honor and are worthy of judgment.

#6-7-8: Murder, adultery, stealing. Treat each other with respect, dignity, morality, and love. Respect lives, boundaries, and property.

#9: False witness. Pertains to courts of law. A society that cannot rely on the truth from its media or in courts of law is in danger of unraveling at its very roots.

#10: Coveting. Ultimately, to desire and to try to obtain the property of another is to be dissatisfied with what God has given you, and thus to show lack of faith in his love. Another one of Carlin's many mistakes, misinterpretations, and despising of religion. He didn't understanding, and he made that quite obvious. Unfortunately, because he was funny people tended to believe what he said. Many people have been deceived.

> Jesus said the first and greatest commandment was to love the lord your god with all your heart, soul strength and mind. So if you love the wrong god, or you are not convinced that a god exists then you are already automatically guilty of breaking the first and greatest commandment. That's not a good system of morality.

Again, it's not supposed to be a system of morality. Jesus is noting that our relationship with God is exactly that, a relationship of love, and not ritual or religion. He's not talking about morality, but how we are to relate to God.

> In fact, for America being a supposedly Christian nation with a Christian majority, isn't it interesting how rarely most 'Christians' follow the ten commandments?

Hopefully now you understand how far off your very understanding is. "Christian" never belongs in front of "nation." Nations aren't Christians, people are. We don't follow the commandments, we follow Jesus.