Board index ‹ Jesus

[Dental]

How do you know that Jesus is God? I'm finding myself undecided these days.

[jimwalton]

Knowing that Jesus is God doesn't depend on scientific research or anything. It's not like we can do an experiment to prove it. But there are plenty of reasons we believe Jesus is God.

1. The miracles Jesus did are beyond the miracles attributed to others. He healed the blind (something even modern doctors can't do), even those blind from birth, cured those who were crippled from birth, walked on water, and raised the dead. These actions are not common kinds of things or attributable to magic tricks or sleight of hand.

2. Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies, many of which he had no earthly control over (like where he was born or the details of what other people did to him when they were killing him). Meteorologists can't even get the weather right every time, and we certainly can't accurately predict the winner and score of the Super Bowl or the NCAA championship game. Fulfilling over 300 prophecies is beyond phenomenal.

3. He rose from the dead. No simple parlor trick.

The Bible teaches, and Jesus himself taught, that a person who is able to do these things is confirmed as divine. At this point it's a matter of whether you buy that or not. Obviously, many do and many do not.

Let's talk some more.

[Sure Breeze]

> The miracles Jesus did are

...not proven to be historical facts.

> Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies

What about these?

> He rose from the dead

Not a historical fact.

> At this point it's a matter of whether you buy that or not. Obviously, many do and many do not.

Why can't this argument be used for any other religion? Why can't this argument be used for a fictional religion?

[jimwalton]

> "The Miracles" - not proven to be historical facts.

Not disproven either, so let's not be biased. If you assume guilty until proven innocent, you are biased. Instead, assume neutrality unless evidence pushes you one direction or the other. That's the more fair way. And we do have some evidence. Besides the testimony of the 4 Gospel writers, Josephus admits that Jesus is renowned for his miracles.

> what about these?

Yes, it's true that many people still don't understand that Jesus's coming is in two stages. After all this time, people should have grasped it.

> "The resurrection" - Not a historical fact

Au contraire, mon frere. Jesus' resurrection has valid historical credibility. At best you can say the evidence isn't as convincing as you would like to to be, but you can certainly not claim it's "not a historical fact," as if it's been proved to be a hoax or fictional.

> Why can't this argument be used for any other religion? Why can't this argument be used for a fictional religion?

Because Christianity is different from other religions because of its grounding in historical events, not just in philosophical or theological musings. So historicity can't be used as an argument for a fictional religion.

[Kata Plasma]

> The miracles Jesus did are beyond the miracles attributed to others.

And yet Jesus claims all of these were done by the power of the Holy Spirit.(Luke 4:18) As Peter says, "Jesus, a man attested to us by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him." The Son does nothing on his own, but only does what the Father is doing. Miracles do not prove Jesus is God. They prove God has anointed this Jesus to perform His works - as Moses before him.

> Fulfilling over 300 prophecies is beyond phenomenal.

And has nothing to do with divinity. Jesus did whatever God had for him to do.

> He rose from the dead.

Because God raised him from the dead. Allowing God to raise you does not make you God.

[jimwalton]

It seems that you are misunderstanding the dynamics of the Trinity. In the Bible, the Trinity distinguishes between the principle of divine action and the subject of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, but the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence. Because Jesus does his works by the power of the Holy Spirit (Lk. 4.18) and by the power of the Father (Jn. 10.25, 32) is not a statement that Jesus is not just as much the divine power in his works as is the Father and the Spirit. They share the principle of divine action as one essence. So also with the resurrection. In John 10.18, Jesus claims to be the power behind his own resurrection. Again, the Father and the Son share divine action as one essence. It's misleading to only say "God raised him from the dead," since Jesus also raised himself from the dead.

> And has nothing to do with divinity. Jesus did whatever God had for him to do.

It has EVERYTHING to do with divinity. John 10.22-42 is this exact argument. The miracles that Jesus did in the name of the Father harmonized with all that the Father stands for and that fit in with His revealed character, and they are a witness of Jesus' character. When Jesus says he did whatever God had for him to do, he is claiming that he doesn't act in isolation. The very character of Jesus' life in all its dimensions equates him with the character of God. Repeatedly throughout the Gospels (and especially in John) it is asserted that Jesus' miracles were signs pointing to his divinity, and only if He failed to do them would it show he was not of the same essence as the Father. Besides, some of the prophecies had to do with divinity (such as Ps. 110.1).

[Dental]

All these seem like they could be true of a superior human.

> The Bible teaches, and Jesus himself taught, that a person who is able to do these things is confirmed as divine.

This is what I'm looking for. Could you point me to such verses?

[jimwalton]

Walking on water, healing the blind, raising the dead—just a special kind of man?? I think you're being a little disingenuous here. No human can do that stuff, not even a superior one. And if you think it's the case, then identify such a person in our world, or even in history. These aren't just human capabilities.

> A person who is able to do these things is confirmed as divine

John 10.22-42 is about the miracles confirming Jesus' deity

In poetic form, Job 9.8 says that God is the only one who can walk on water.

John 9.32-33: Only a person from God can heal the blind. Also look at Ps. 146.8; Isa. 35.5.

Healing the lame: Isa. 35.4-6. Compare with Matthew 11.5.

And obviously also places like Mark 2.5-7.

[Kata Plasma]

> In John 10.18, Jesus claims to be the power behind his own resurrection.

He doesn't. He claims the Father has given him the authority to take his life back up. "This is the command of my Father." The source of that power and authority is the Father, not the Son. The Son, as it were, does nothing. He is merely an instrument and vessel of God.

> John 10.22-42 is this exact argument.

No clue how you got that out of this text.

> Repeatedly throughout the Gospels (and especially in John) it is asserted that Jesus' miracles were signs pointing to his divinity

No, they are signs pointing to the spirit of the Father within him, as chapter 10 concludes.

> Besides, some of the prophecies had to do with divinity (such as Ps. 110.1).

YHWH said to David's lord, 'sit at my right hand.' This again has nothing to do with divinity. You are finding the divinity of Christ everywhere. YHWH did not tell YHWH to sit at His right hand. He told David's human lord to do that. Peter concludes on Pentecost that by resurrection "God has made him to be both Lord and Christ." Lord and Christ are titles given to Jesus by his resurrection and exaltation. How can you conclude that Psalm 110:1 indicates that Jesus is YHWH?

[jimwalton]

> John 10.18

Jesus says some things in plain Aramaic : ). "I lay [down my life] of my own accord." While it was the Father's will that asked Jesus to sacrifice his life (Isa. 53.10), Jesus' voluntarily submitted to that purpose. The Father "gave" the Son, who agreed to be given and was glad to be given. Jesus laid down his life "from himself" (the Greek terms).

But he's not done. Jesus follows that with "I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again." Since he is divine, and shares the principle of divine action, his authority is not restricted to secondary causality. It is his own rule in free agreement with the will of the Father. There is a bond of action that the Father and Son share in perfect union and equality. They are the same being (Jn. 10.30).

> John 10.22-42

This passage shows that Jesus considered that his miracles were a corroborative sign of his deity since they showed that his character and actions were in perfect union with the Father's character and actions. A number of the prophecies pertained to these very works (Isa. 61.1-3 is an obvious example, but there are many more). Jesus' miracle-working power was part of the prophetic picture.

> they are signs pointing to the spirit of the Father within him, as chapter 10 concludes.

Sure, but what does Jesus mean by "the Father is in me, and I in the Father"? He is repeating his claim from v. 30 that he is one with the Father, that the two of them share deity as one essence. He is saying that his works of mercy and love are proofs that he and God are the same being.

> Psalm 110

David wrote the psalm as a prophetic oracle about the king, probably after David conquered Jerusalem. The New Testament, however, and Jesus himself, is quite adamant that the ultimate fulfillment of this psalm isn't David, but Jesus (Mk. 12.35-37).

In Ps. 110.1, David is learning YHWH speaking to the messiah (a perspective shared by Judaism). The "lord" in question clearly isn't David. The king of Israel was co-regent with YHWH (1 Chr. 29.23), a visible representative of God (1 Chr. 28.5). But this verse has a different slant. YHWH is commanding the person to take his place at his right hand, the highest place of honor (1 Ki. 2.19). It's a statement of divinity, repeatedly interpreted by the NT to be declaring exactly that truth (Mt. 22.41-46 and parallels; Acts 2.34ff.; 1 Cor. 15.25; Heb. 1.13; 10.13).