Board index ‹ Noah's Ark & the Flood

[Numbers]

> No, this is not the biblical account. In the biblical account, it was humanity that made the mistake (Gn. 6.5).

If god is omniscient, he knew we would sin, so it is his mistake as well.

[jimwalton]

Now, now, this doesn't make any sense. When a parent has a child, he and she know that child is going to disobey sometimes and makes mistakes sometimes. Do we blame the parents for that? Of course not.

It's impossible that humankind would be perfect and not sin. We understand that one of the attributes of God is that he is uncreated. Anything created is, therefore, not God. And if anything is not God, it is therefore susceptible to damage, wrong, and bad choices—sin. In other words, it is impossible for God to have created a being that didn't have the possibility of sin. Free will necessitates, well, free will. That doesn't make it "God's mistake."

God knew we would sin, and had instituted a plan before it happened to redeem the sin, offer forgiveness for the mistakes, and provide a way for the sin to be erased.

[Ebola]

> In Gn. 6.6 it says "the Lord was grieved." When this word occurs elsewhere in the OT, it almost always has to do with God changing his will concerning a future plan of action, not admission of a mistake of a past action.

The second half of Genesis 6:6 says he was grieved, but the first half says he regretted making humans. To regret you must first make a mistake.

Other translations say he was sorry or he repented, but all mean the same thing.

The Bible says God made a mistake.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for bringing this up. Let's look at this. As I mentioned, "grieved" (the word yinnahem at the beginning of v. 6) doesn't mean he was sorry he made a mistake, but instead that there would have to be a change in the future. Then the end of v. 6 says "his heart was filled with pain." It helps define the word "grieved" at the beginning of the verse. It shows that the grief (translated as "repentance" in some versions) doesn't attribute any variableness to his nature or in his purposes, but that the corruption the people had brought to themselves broke his heart. Then the end of verse 7 repeats (same root) that a change would have to be instituted. So there is no hint that God had made a mistake, only that humankind had made so many mistakes they had broken the heart of God.

[Spiderman]

> A human being is a created in the image of God and he or she has a soul. What do mean make them disappear? You can't just "poof" away an eternal soul (if you want to know what the Bible teaches).

cool, i'll add that to the list.

things god can't do:

1. create a rock so heavy he can't lift it
2. defeat iron chariots
3. make people disappear

[jimwalton]

There are plenty of things God can't do.

- He can't do what is logically absurd or contradictory (make a rock he can't lift, make a square circle, know what it's like not to know something).
- He can't act contrary to his nature (he can't lie, sin, etc.)
- He cannot fail to do what he has promised
- He cannot interfere with the freedom of man
- He cannot change the past

Omnipotence never claims that God can do everything. What it means is that God's power is all-sufficient. He can realize whatever is possible.

And, since we're on the subject, you're right about the first one (the rock), but wrong about the last two. God can defeat iron chariots, and he can make people disappear. But he can't poof them into nonexistence.

[Farmer 77]

> For the same reason human parents have children knowing that there is always the possibility that the child might be disobedient

He asked a question about someone with perfect foreknowledge, and you answered one about someone who lacks that. Not exactly fair.

> always the possibility that the child might be disobedient, might turn against them one day

And if a perfectly loving parent confidently knew their child would do so - is a retroactive abortion the right answer? Consider, I love my children very much, and yet if I knew they would be disobedient, or turn against me, I would still never consider slaughtering them. Does god love his children more than I do, or less?

> Third, God knew that whatever evil bad men could perpetrate, God could redeem it if they would just let him.

Through what method? Did the evil people slaughtered in the flood have access to this redemption? Was it taught to them? You've got to add an awful lot of fan-fiction to the bible to support your hypothesis. And you haven't even written this fan-fiction yet, you just sort of allude to what it might probably contain.

[jimwalton]

> He asked a question about someone with perfect foreknowledge, and you answered one about someone who lacks that. Not exactly fair.

It was fair in the sense of answering the question: Why would a being bring another being into existence if they knew that being would sin. Even we humans without omniscience have enough knowledge to know that children aren't going to be perfect, and yet we bring them into the world as an act of love (most of the time, or some of the time...).

> And if a perfectly loving parent confidently knew their child would do so - is a retroactive abortion the right answer?

No, of course not, but justice is the right answer. People have to be accountable for their actions, and the account of Genesis says that people and society had become thoroughly corrupted—a failed civilization due to a chain of wicked choices. Any judge worth his salt will find such perpetrators guilty. Any system that has even a modicum of morality will punish such people. Why is this so unfair? A just and moral society is built on principles of law, order, and justice: vindication for the good and punishment for the bad. Why is God not held up to the same standard?

> yet if I knew they would be disobedient, or turn against me, I would still never consider slaughtering them.

As you said, not exactly fair. It's not the same situation. Of course you wouldn't slaughter your own children (though I have heard stories of a man who shot his own son who had become evil, and of parents who turned their children in to the authorities for their crimes, even though capital punishment was probably going to be the result). The point here is eternal destiny. Knowing that people in hell are only punished to the extent of their "crimes," and that the punishment is commensurate to the infraction, if there is a society that is only destined to become worse, isn't there justification in terminating it to prevent even more horrific consequences?

> Did the evil people slaughtered in the flood have access to this redemption?

The Bible indicates that Noah was a preacher of righteousness to his generation (2 Peter 2.5). There is also good reason to believe that the Flood was regional, not global. So there is reason to believe that the evil people had heard the way of escape from their corruption but refused to take it.

> And you haven't even written this fan-fiction yet, you just sort of allude to what it might probably contain.

There's no reason to write a long justification if you haven't asked for it. I don't like just dumping on people. If you want to know, I'll be glad to write.

[Numbers]

> Now, now, this doesn't make any sense. When a parent has a child, he and she know that child is going to disobey sometimes and makes mistakes sometimes. Do we blame the parents for that? Of course not.

We do blame the parents in some cases, if not all.

If a kid doesn't stop screaming and running around in the supermarket, disobeying, the parents are not magically absolved of their responsibility. They are still responsible.

Also, parents aren't claimed to be all loving or all knowing.

Not only that, but it is easy for multiple parties to be responsible for something.

In the case of the disobedient kid in the supermarket, both the parent and the kid are to blame for the misbehavior.

You can't just pass off god's portion of the responsibility for it just because humans had a part. But in this case, it would be inaccurate to say that humanity had a part.

> It's impossible that humankind would be perfect and not sin.

And that doesn't absolve god's responsibility. If he created something that he knew would be result in evil then he is responsible for it.

Also, if it was impossible for us to not sin, then that means we have no free will and it is entirely god's fault.

You've shot yourself in the foot here.

> it is impossible for God to have created a being that didn't have the possibility of sin. Free will necessitates, well, free will.

If it is impossible for us to not sin, then we don't have free will.

And just as I've said before, even if we did have free will, which you've pretty much admitted that we don't, it wouldn't matter because god would still be responsible.

> God knew we would sin, and had instituted a plan before it happened to redeem the sin,

And the plan was worthless since he knew it would fail.

[jimwalton]

> We do blame the parents in some cases, if not all.

That's where the analogy breaks down, because it's true that sometimes parents are complicit in their children's behavior by their own mistakes. This is not the case with God, however. Our behavior came about totally from ourselves.

> Also, parents aren't claimed to be all loving or all knowing.

All-knowledge has nothing to do with it. The point is that we bring children into the world as an act of love knowing they will not be perfect. Same dynamic.

> You can't just pass off god's portion of the responsibility for it just because humans had a part.

Humans didn't just have a part, they were the whole ball of wax. It was impossible for God to create beings that were uncreated (and therefore God had no choices but to create people who were not divine). Because they weren't divine, it was possible for us to sin. God is not responsible for creating us as good as possible, then warning us not to sin, and making a way for us to follow His way. We had the free will to follow God or to indulge self. We chose to indulge self, and God is not responsible for that.

> And the plan was worthless since he knew it would fail.

Oh, the plan didn't fail at all. The plan is still alive and well. God is redeeming people from sin all over the world. People are escaping the slavery of their own pride, self-orientation and sin and turning to God for forgiveness and redemption. I will take this opportunity even to extend the invitation to you: If you will repent of your sin, you too can join the family of God and be forgiven and free. God will forgive your sin, and you'll no longer be subject to judgment for sin you've already committed. You can be a new creation and start life over in a love relationship with God.