Board index ‹ Free Will

[Deranged]

Ok, that's a lot to respond to. First, minor thing, "evidence" is an uncountable noun. There is no plural. You might have "pieces of evidence", but not "evidences". Doesn't effect anything, that's just a common mistake.

To the point, I'm not saying that knowledge causes anything. I never did. What knowledge does is prevent other possibilities. If you know that the sun will rise tomorrow with absolute certainty, that won't directly cause the sun to rise, but it means that any situation that would cause the sun to not rise is impossible.

Similarly, knowing that you will choose chocolate ice cream doesn't make you choose it, but it makes it impossible for you to choose anything else. By having knowledge of all future events, the number of possible outcomes for any choice is reduced to one, the one that god knows will be taken.

If every choice has only one possible outcome, then there is no choice. No other option could possibly be taken. If you can't make any choice, you don't have free will.

[jimwalton]

> I'm not saying that knowledge causes anything. I never did.

Well then it's so close as to be indistinguishable. You are saying that God's knowledge makes us unable to act in any way except one, which sounds like his knowledge us is locking us into a behavior.

> What knowledge does is prevent other possibilities.

That's causality. You are saying that knowledge "does" something. It's not possible, as I've repeatedly explained.

> but it means that any situation that would cause the sun to not rise is impossible.

Again, you're talking about causality. Any situation that would cause the sun not to rise is not knowledge but the application of some kind of power/energy/force. Knowledge is none of those.

> knowing that you will choose chocolate ice cream doesn't make you choose it, but it makes it impossible for you to choose anything else.

Not true. Suppose I happen to know that you love chocolate so much you'll choose it every time. Every time. My confident knowledge does nothing to motivate, suggest, or compel you to choose chocolate. You choose freely.

> the one that god knows will be taken.

That's right. God knows it will be taken, but He hasn't made you take it. You take it freely.

> If every choice has only one possible outcome, then there is no choice.

But every choice has a multitude of possible outcomes. You're right that if every choice has only one possible outcome then there's no choice. True. But that's not the situation with omniscience. There are a multitude of possible outcomes. Read Jeremiah 18.1-12, which I've already suggested. The choices are real and the outcomes are wide open. Because God can see around the corner and down the road doesn't mean that He has forced your hand.

[Deranged]

You're ignoring my entire point by saying "knowledge can't do anything".

Your use of my analogy is honestly just stupid. If god knows with absolute certainty that you will pick chocolate, it is not possible to "choose freely" anything else.

If you know with absolute certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow, is it possible for anything to happen that would cause the sun to not rise?

You cannot name one scenario where god can know what choice you will make and where you will be able to make any choice that is different from that. It is not possible.

[jimwalton]

> Your use of my analogy is honestly just stupid. If god knows with absolute certainty that you will pick chocolate, it is not possible to "choose freely" anything else.

Let's hypothetically look at it this way. Supposed we are in the ice cream store and I am able to move 10 minutes into the future, and so I do. I am therefore able to observe that you choose to order a chocolate ice cream, and you do so. Then I come back to the present. Now I have distinct and unassailable knowledge that you are going to choose chocolate. But my knowledge has not limited your choices, it has not forced you to choose chocolate, and it has not interfered in the least in your free will. My knowledge is sure, but your free will is perfectly intact.

That illustration is a fair understanding of how God knows everything but doesn't determine everything.

[Deranged]

But the question remains, since you know that I will choose chocolate, can I choose anything else?

[jimwalton]

That question doesn't remain. All I did was observe. You had the will, freedom, and volition to choose whatever you wanted. My observation of it had no causal effect on your mental processes or your choices. Yes, you could easily have chosen anything you wanted. All I did was watch. I did nothing to determine your direction or to limit your choices.