Board index ‹ God

[Pigeon]

Evidence of shrines and worshipping have been found dating back to 9,000 B.C.E., and rituals of burial back to 100,000 B.C.E., and there have been many different religions (Such as Greek, Norse, Irish, Native American, Mayan, Nigerian, Egyptian, Zoroastrian,...) during recorded history, many of which do not even have a “main” god which can be argued was their perception of god. Many religions of these cultures had acts considered a sin in Christianity as part of their religion as well, against the argument of “god was working in mysterious ways but led them nonetheless”.

Even though I’m atheist myself, I have to argue against my own beliefs, and evidentiary and provable responses I can use in structured debate are the most helpful.

[jimwalton]

Yahwism started specifically around 2000 BC with the life of Abraham. Nothing is to be found before then. But there was no Yahwistic cult until around 1300, so nothing to be found. It was only in about 1200 BC (give or take, depending on your perspective) that Israel settled the land of Canaan and their cult became planted in that particular landscape. So one would only expect to find anything from that date forward.

If you're looking for artifacts and documentary evidence of BC Yahwism, there are several. I'll just name a few.

- A large temple complex at Dan in northern Israel, complete with altar, Holy of Holies, and other cultic structures. Dates to the late 10th c. BC.
- A sanctuary at Arad was found dating to the 9th-8th c. BC. It contains a sacrificial altar, a standing stone, two small incense altars, and a "Holy of Holies" similar to Solomon's and Herod's temples.
- A four-horned altar on a hillside in the Judean hills
- A four-horned altar from the days of Hezekiah (around 700 BC)
- A silver amulet inscribed with the blessing from Numbers 6.24-26, dating to the 7th or 6th c. BC.

That should be enough to start the conversation.

[Pigeon]

Thank you but your argument completely ignores 98,000 years of religious development all over the world, mostly with multiple gods.

[jimwalton]

98,000 years is speculative. Yes, they have found burials, and assume some kind of ritual based on some possible evidence, but to declare it as "98,000 years of religious development all over the world" is a statement scholarship will not support. You'll notice the articles about them often include terms like "thought to have" and "that one might characterize." While there are evidences of some kinds of religious awareness and practice, the information is scant and the conclusions tentative.

Besides, I have no problem with the evolution of humanity and of religious practice. The Genesis story has no conflict with evolutionary theory, including that of humanity.

The ruins at Gobekli Tepe (a temple complex in Turkey) are (as far as I know) the oldest temple found. It dates to about 9500 BC, and predates villages, pottery, domesticated animals, and even agriculture itself. Some scholarly conclusions from the site include that the practice of religion predates civilized life, and is possibly the instigating cause of civilized life. Patrick Symmes, in Newsweek (2010), says, "The temples offer unexpected proof that humankind emerged from the 140,000-year reign of hunter-gatherers with a ready vocabulary of spiritual images and capable of huge logistical, economic, and political efforts."

The story of humans civilization begins at about that time (10,000 BC), with a city showing in the ruins at Jericho in about 8,000 BC. The story of Genesis may begin around 6,000 BC with "Adam and Eve" being called out from among other humans to be the representatives to whom God would reveal Himself.

I'm not sure what your point is and what case you are trying to make. Nor do I know what you think I was ignoring. You wanted to know if God was "present" in BC, and I gave you evidence that He was, that the story of Yahwism begins at about 6000 BC and more specifically at 2000 BC. I assumed I was answering your question, with a "Yes, God was present in B.C.E." May we continue the discussion?