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[Propaganda]

I searched and I don't think this has come up before on this sub. Down here in TX (probably everywhere) some people have these "Keep Christ in Christmas" magnets on their cars.

Who exactly are they talking to?

Are they trying to tell Christians how they should worship and celebrate?

or

Are they trying to discourage secular people/non-Christians from celebrating?

Either option kinda seems like gatekeeping, which is missing the point of spreading the word right? So what am I missing here?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts from a friendly, happy atheist.

[jimwalton]

As far I would evaluate, they are not trying to tell Christians how to worship and celebrate, nor are they trying to discourage secular people/non-Christians from celebrating. It would be my guess that they think they're talking to anyone in authority (government, schools, retail outlets) who makes December 25 about a winter celebration or Santa or who can spend the most money on stuff. Christmas is obviously about the birth of Jesus and God's incarnation. When it gets so diluted with other factors and foci to the point that it's no longer about Jesus, that's like saying July 4 isn't about America or Thanksgiving isn't about gratitude.

I don't see it about "gatekeeping" at all, but about retaining the focus of what Christmas really is: a remembrance and celebration of the birth of Jesus on Earth.

[Propaganda]

Fair enough. Maybe gatekeeping was the wrong word, but it seems like a step above "Jesus is the reason for the season". I'm also surprised then that there aren't any "Keep Christ in Easter". I know it doesn't have that ring, but you could sell twice as many magnets.

[jimwalton]

Well, truthfully speaking, Jesus is the reason for Christmas. All of it (holidays, X-mas, "Keep Christ in Christmas," and "Jesus is the reason for the season") has become very cliche through overuse and pedantic treatment.

As to Easter, it just doesn't have the same secular input that Christmas does. Aside from the make-believe fun of Easter bunnies, egg decorating and egg hunts, there isn't much attention paid to Easter outside of the Church. There isn't so much push-out of Jesus from Easter coming from the culture as there is about Christmas.

[Jarold]

> Well, truthfully speaking, Jesus is the reason for Christmas.

> Christmas is obviously about the birth of Jesus and God's incarnation.

The name christmas may be, but the celebration existed way before christ.

[jimwalton]

>> Jesus is the reason for Christmas.
>> Christmas is obviously about the birth of Jesus and God's incarnation.

> The name christmas may be, but the celebration existed way before christ.

I'm going to ask you for evidence of this. It sounds like you're claiming that the celebration of Jesus's birth as God incarnate "existed way before christ." I'm gonna need to see that.

[Jarold]

> I'm going to ask you for evidence of this. It sounds like you're claiming that the celebration of Jesus's birth as God incarnate "existed way before christ." I'm gonna need to see that.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that societies around the world celebrated the winter solstice around December 25. Christianity co-opted that celebration and called it christmas.

Additionally, from what I understand, historians put jesus's birth at around summer time, so what's up with that?

[jimwalton]

> from what I understand, historians put jesus's birth at around summer time, so what's up with that?

Yes, the odds of Jesus having been born at the end of December are close to nil. I've studied the issue and think he was born in the fall. Others put him in the spring. Almost no one puts his birth in December. Frankly, nobody really knows when he was born. I make the case for October of 7 BC.

> I'm saying that societies around the world celebrated the winter solstice around December 25. Christianity co-opted that celebration and called it christmas.

There are different theories of how the Christians came to celebrate Jesus's birthday on the 25th of December. One I've heard is that the Romans were celebrating then, so the Christians could also get away with it without interference (since Christians were being martyred), but from my research, this theory has been largely debunked (though it still appears often in popular literature, i.e., the Internet).

There is no mention from the early Christian writers about celebrations of Jesus's birth at all. Neither Irenaeus (c. 130–200) or Tertullian (c. 160–225) say a word about it. Origen of Alexandria (c. 165–264) mocks Roman celebrations of birthdays, dismissing them as pagan practices—a strong indication that Jesus's birth was not recognized or celebrated at the time. As far as we can tell, Christmas was not celebrated at all by Christians in the first several centuries, also refuting the idea that they were just co-opting Roman winter solstice traditions.

in about AD 200, Clement of Alexandria, a Christian teacher in Egypt, does talk about Jesus's birth. According to him, several different possible days had been proposed by various Christian groups. He doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: "There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21]."

By the 4th century, however, we find references to two dates that were widely recognized—and now also celebrated—as Jesus's birthday: December 25 in the western Roman Empire and January 6 in the Eastern Roman Empire (especially in Egypt and Asia Minor). The modern Orthodox church still celebrates Christmas on January 6 (as do our Russian friends).

The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus's birthday comes from a Roman almanac in the middle of the 4th century, which lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs. The first date listed, December 25, is labelled: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: "Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea."

So, almost 300 years after Jesus was born, we finally find Christians celebrating Christmas in the middle of winter, either December 25 (west) and January 6 (east). There is no hint from actual ancient records that it was designed to coincide with the winter solstice. (That suggestion doesn't appear until the 12th century.) The early church was diligent about distancing itself from the Roman culture.

Another theory is that the Catholics celebrate the annunciation on March 25th, and Dec. 25 is 9 months after that.

So we don't know when Jesus was born. But it's not likely that Christianity co-oped the winter solstice celebration and called it Christmas.

[Jarold]

> So we don't know when Jesus was born. But it's not likely that Christianity co-oped the winter solstice celebration and called it Christmas.

You offered a bunch of data on how this was a celebration before, and how its well understood that christ wasn't born in December, then without any rhyme nor reason you conclude that Christmas isn't a rebranded winter solstice celebration. The data you provided doesn't support that conclusion.

But what does make this more interesting is what are the common traditions that are observed during Xmas, and where they come from. Obviously the nativity scene thing is about jesus, and good old saint nic came way later and is a saint, so those are clearly christian related, but the term yule is the scandinavian name for the winter solstice celebration which is a twelve day celebration and includes a tree, wreath, and yule log.

This is just one example from one early culture, so trying to claim Christmas as a christian creation is ignorant about its actual history.

[jimwalton]

> The data you provided doesn't support that conclusion.

Let me try again, then.

1. The evidence is strong that Jesus was not born in December.
2. When the early church writers even mention Jesus's birth, which is rare, they mention it being at other times, not in December.
3. There's no evidence that Jesus's birth was recognized or celebrated in the first several centuries.
4. The Romans celebrated the winter solstice, but there's no evidence in the first several centuries of Christianity that Christmas was even celebrated, let alone that it was celebrated at the winter solstice.
5. The early Christians did everything possible to distance themselves from Roman practices and particularly Roman religion, so there was no using of a Roman festival to celebrate Christmas.
6. It's only about AD 350 or so that December 25 is mentioned as the birthday of Jesus, and there is no mention of a celebration let alone anything to do with the winter solstice.
7. The Eastern Church has never celebrated Christmas at the winter solstice.
8. What information we have from the Roman Catholic Church puts Christmas in December because they put the conception in March. The birth of Christ has nothing to do with the winter solstice.

THEREFORE, I conclude that Christmas isn't a rebranded winter solstice celebration. Christianity did not co-opt the winter solstice celebration and call it Christmas, as you claim.

> But what does make this more interesting is what are the common traditions that are observed during Xmas, and where they come from.

Yes, I agree that many of our current traditions in the celebration of Christmas come from a variety of non-religious sources. But this is very different thing than what you were talking about (Christmas as a co-opted winter solstice celebration). St. Nicholas was an actual person who gave gifts to needy children. The tree, the wreath, the yule log—yep, all secular sources, not biblical ones.

But Christmas as a Christian creation is true. The celebration itself started sometime in the middle of the first millennium as a religious observation of the Christ Mass. "Mass" comes from a Latin term, first used around the 6th century, describing the Church's liturgical engagement with the presence of Christ. The Christ Mass was an engagement with the Incarnated Christ. For centuries it was a religious service only.

There are many legends about St. Nicholas himself (4th century). It's hard to know what's true. Gift giving may have started then, but it had to do with his Christian faith (and thus Christmas as a Christian creation).

It wasn't until the 18th century that the culture got more deeply involved in gift giving, decorating, trees, wreaths, and the like. Most of these practices were from secular sources, but Christmas itself was a distinctly Christian creation.