> the problem remains that God watches it being perpetuated.
Yes, He does. And He is constantly at works in ways that He can work to eliminate or reduce it. The Earth continues to produce abundantly. People all over the world work in both coordinated and parallel efforts to bring food to the hungry.
> Why is preserving the freedom of the malicious force more important than the freedom of those that share?
I don't think it is. Any "freedom" has to work within the constraints of morality, responsibility, and ultimate good. Some people, however, see freedom as the right to do whatever I want, but civil freedom can never responsibly be interpreted in that way. We can't allow "freedom" to murder, rape, steal, etc. Nor should we allow the "freedom" of malicious force.
> This is essentially the result of God standing by in these cases
God doesn't stand by. He is continually at work in the lives of government leaders, military forces, police, courts, lawyers, advocates, social services, and individual people to effect righteous change in the world. God works through His people.
> "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Right. That's why we don't. We are constantly at work, by the power and will of God, to effect justice, compassion, health, and peace in the world. Constantly. God is at work in us and through us.
Board index ‹ Jesus
Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by jimwalton » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:17 am
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by Book Mitten » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:20 am
> But there are even cases of such suffering (such as the story of Joni Eareckson Tada, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Eareckson_Tada) where God shines through.
I would say her efforts are her own. I know that you'd say that God is instructing her/guiding her to some extent, but then where is God in other situations where people don't or can't overcome? There's also situations where people don't and or can't find some way of turning things around the way she did.
I would say her efforts are her own. I know that you'd say that God is instructing her/guiding her to some extent, but then where is God in other situations where people don't or can't overcome? There's also situations where people don't and or can't find some way of turning things around the way she did.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by jimwalton » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:21 am
God is at work in those situations also. Some people respond to Him while others do not. God doesn't invade people; He comes into a life by invitation. He helps by process. Overcoming one's physical insufficiencies is not the goal; instead, it is finding God and having a relationship with Him.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by Book Mitten » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:41 pm
> Overcoming one's physical insufficiencies is not the goal; instead, it is finding God and having a relationship with Him
Are those things mutually exclusive?
> Some people respond to Him while others do not. God doesn't invade people; He comes into a life by invitation. He helps by process.
Some people don't know how to respond. Others can't get in touch with him. I don't see how appearing in the sky like I mentioned earlier (or something along similar lines) is any more an invasion than being dragged into a cruel state of affairs, which many people are.
Are those things mutually exclusive?
> Some people respond to Him while others do not. God doesn't invade people; He comes into a life by invitation. He helps by process.
Some people don't know how to respond. Others can't get in touch with him. I don't see how appearing in the sky like I mentioned earlier (or something along similar lines) is any more an invasion than being dragged into a cruel state of affairs, which many people are.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by jimwalton » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:47 pm
> Are those things mutually exclusive?
Not at all. God promises us freedom from sin and a relationship with Him. He doesn't promise physical healing. The Bible encourages us to seek God no matter what, and to be content in whatever state we're in.
> Some people don't know how to respond.
That's why the Bible tells us. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself and how to come into relationship with Him. We're supposed to respond by repenting of our sins (turning away from them), making a life commitment to God, learn the Bible, and be compassionate to all humanity.
> Others can't get in touch with him
A simple prayer puts you in touch with Him, but don't expect Him to talk back. Prayer is how I talk to Him; the Bible (and other ways) is how He talks to me. If you seek God with all your heart, the Bible says, He will find you.
> than being dragged into a cruel state of affairs, which many people are.
Yes, life can be difficult or even downright awful. Many Bible texts talk about the reality of suffering and how it works in us to produce things like patience, reliance, strength, perseverance, and hope. Hebrews 11.36-39 talks about some of God's followers who are tortured, cut in two, homeless, and persecuted. Our faith is not in the good life, but forgiveness from sin and relationship with God.
Not at all. God promises us freedom from sin and a relationship with Him. He doesn't promise physical healing. The Bible encourages us to seek God no matter what, and to be content in whatever state we're in.
> Some people don't know how to respond.
That's why the Bible tells us. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself and how to come into relationship with Him. We're supposed to respond by repenting of our sins (turning away from them), making a life commitment to God, learn the Bible, and be compassionate to all humanity.
> Others can't get in touch with him
A simple prayer puts you in touch with Him, but don't expect Him to talk back. Prayer is how I talk to Him; the Bible (and other ways) is how He talks to me. If you seek God with all your heart, the Bible says, He will find you.
> than being dragged into a cruel state of affairs, which many people are.
Yes, life can be difficult or even downright awful. Many Bible texts talk about the reality of suffering and how it works in us to produce things like patience, reliance, strength, perseverance, and hope. Hebrews 11.36-39 talks about some of God's followers who are tortured, cut in two, homeless, and persecuted. Our faith is not in the good life, but forgiveness from sin and relationship with God.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by Book Mitten » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:53 pm
> The Earth continues to produce abundantly.
What about draught and natural disasters?
> Nor should we allow the "freedom" of malicious force.
So why does he?
> God doesn't stand by. He is continually at work in the lives of government leaders, military forces, police, courts, lawyers, advocates, social services, and individual people to effect righteous change in the world. God works through His people.
These people work within limits of knowledge. Some killers/rapists etc get away because nobody has the knowledge of who the culprit is. God however presumably knows all that occurs in the universe, and is likely therefore more able to stop the crime.
What about draught and natural disasters?
> Nor should we allow the "freedom" of malicious force.
So why does he?
> God doesn't stand by. He is continually at work in the lives of government leaders, military forces, police, courts, lawyers, advocates, social services, and individual people to effect righteous change in the world. God works through His people.
These people work within limits of knowledge. Some killers/rapists etc get away because nobody has the knowledge of who the culprit is. God however presumably knows all that occurs in the universe, and is likely therefore more able to stop the crime.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by jimwalton » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:55 pm
> What about draught and natural disasters?
Drought and natural disasters are part of the dynamism of the Earth, and a dynamic planet is superior to a static one; possibly a dynamic planet is necessary for life here. Despite that, as we know, the Earth seems to be rigged for life. Life is a powerful and dynamic force that will succeed despite many obstacles. We've seen it over and over, and science tells us all about it as well.
> These people work within limits of knowledge.
Correct. We only human, after all.
> So why does [God allow the "freedom" of malicious force]?
God instituted human government and judicial systems to handle such things as His representatives (Rom. 13.1-7).
> Some killers/rapists etc get away because nobody has the knowledge of who the culprit is
Some do, yep. That's why there's a judgment after life when all accounts will be set right by a judge who is perfectly fair.
> God however presumably knows all that occurs in the universe, and is likely therefore more able to stop the crime.
God has told us that's not how He works. Gn. 9.6 (and other texts) institute human government and judicial systems to work out God's justice on the Earth. It's our responsibility. But when we mess up (get it wrong) or miss it entirely (as per your statement), God will catch it in the afterlife and make sure everybody gets exactly what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10).
Drought and natural disasters are part of the dynamism of the Earth, and a dynamic planet is superior to a static one; possibly a dynamic planet is necessary for life here. Despite that, as we know, the Earth seems to be rigged for life. Life is a powerful and dynamic force that will succeed despite many obstacles. We've seen it over and over, and science tells us all about it as well.
> These people work within limits of knowledge.
Correct. We only human, after all.
> So why does [God allow the "freedom" of malicious force]?
God instituted human government and judicial systems to handle such things as His representatives (Rom. 13.1-7).
> Some killers/rapists etc get away because nobody has the knowledge of who the culprit is
Some do, yep. That's why there's a judgment after life when all accounts will be set right by a judge who is perfectly fair.
> God however presumably knows all that occurs in the universe, and is likely therefore more able to stop the crime.
God has told us that's not how He works. Gn. 9.6 (and other texts) institute human government and judicial systems to work out God's justice on the Earth. It's our responsibility. But when we mess up (get it wrong) or miss it entirely (as per your statement), God will catch it in the afterlife and make sure everybody gets exactly what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10).
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by Book Mitten » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:49 am
> Drought and natural disasters are part of the dynamism of the Earth, and a dynamic planet is superior to a static one; possibly a dynamic planet is necessary for life here.
Didn't we agree that dynamism doesn't require evil? Sorry if I misinterpreted us as being in agreement. I would also say that certain natural disasters create a severe lack of dynamism (namely death), and thus can't be looked at in the same way.
> Some do, yep. That's why there's a judgment after life when all accounts will be set right by a judge who is perfectly fair.
What is the point of this when the crime has already been done? Punishment should be preventative. Sending people to hell doesn't change the fact that the crime occured. The issue of God watching and not preventing still remains.
> God will catch it in the afterlife and make sure everybody gets exactly what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10).
Didn't you say he doesn't operate according to retribution? Or have I read you wrong?
Didn't we agree that dynamism doesn't require evil? Sorry if I misinterpreted us as being in agreement. I would also say that certain natural disasters create a severe lack of dynamism (namely death), and thus can't be looked at in the same way.
> Some do, yep. That's why there's a judgment after life when all accounts will be set right by a judge who is perfectly fair.
What is the point of this when the crime has already been done? Punishment should be preventative. Sending people to hell doesn't change the fact that the crime occured. The issue of God watching and not preventing still remains.
> God will catch it in the afterlife and make sure everybody gets exactly what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10).
Didn't you say he doesn't operate according to retribution? Or have I read you wrong?
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by jimwalton » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:49 am
> Didn't we agree that dynamism doesn't require evil?
it depends. When a typhoon kills thousands of people, or a volcano, or tornado, is that "evil"? I say no. An impersonal force cannot perpetrate evil. It's just there. But people suffer and die. Yes, but impersonal natural cataclysms can't perpetrate evil.
> What is the point of this when the crime has already been done? Punishment should be preventative.
Some punishment is preventative, but some of it is just justice. Justice demands punishment of crimes even if such punishment is not rehabilitative. Otherwise we desecrate the victim's suffering.
> Didn't you say he doesn't operate according to retribution? Or have I read you wrong?
I said this WORLD doesn't work according to the Retribution Principle; but the afterlife most certainly does.
it depends. When a typhoon kills thousands of people, or a volcano, or tornado, is that "evil"? I say no. An impersonal force cannot perpetrate evil. It's just there. But people suffer and die. Yes, but impersonal natural cataclysms can't perpetrate evil.
> What is the point of this when the crime has already been done? Punishment should be preventative.
Some punishment is preventative, but some of it is just justice. Justice demands punishment of crimes even if such punishment is not rehabilitative. Otherwise we desecrate the victim's suffering.
> Didn't you say he doesn't operate according to retribution? Or have I read you wrong?
I said this WORLD doesn't work according to the Retribution Principle; but the afterlife most certainly does.
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Re: Jesus could be a supernatural being, but not God.
by Book Mitten » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 am
> That's why the Bible tells us. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself and how to come into relationship with Him.
Like I was saying, the problem is that there have been so many interpretations throughout history, many causing wars, that I am left confused as to what is the true revelation, especially considering other religions.
> Our faith is not in the good life, but forgiveness from sin and relationship with God.
Doesn't forgiveness require something to forgive in the first place? Wouldn't this cancel out the virtue of the goal?
> If you seek God with all your heart, the Bible says, He will find you.
This makes the matter unfalsifiable, because the Christian would just claim that those that couldn't recognise or reach God were simply "not seeking with all their heart". How do you measure such a thing? How can you know the contents of someone's heart? The claim allows the theist to make accusations however they want in order to fit the biblical narrative.
> Hebrews 11.36-39 talks about some of God's followers who are tortured, cut in two, homeless, and persecuted.
Does this mean he exists simply because they were dedicated? Suicide cults have fanatical levels of dedication to their cause, often through self deception and indoctrination. Just look at the likes of Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite.
Like I was saying, the problem is that there have been so many interpretations throughout history, many causing wars, that I am left confused as to what is the true revelation, especially considering other religions.
> Our faith is not in the good life, but forgiveness from sin and relationship with God.
Doesn't forgiveness require something to forgive in the first place? Wouldn't this cancel out the virtue of the goal?
> If you seek God with all your heart, the Bible says, He will find you.
This makes the matter unfalsifiable, because the Christian would just claim that those that couldn't recognise or reach God were simply "not seeking with all their heart". How do you measure such a thing? How can you know the contents of someone's heart? The claim allows the theist to make accusations however they want in order to fit the biblical narrative.
> Hebrews 11.36-39 talks about some of God's followers who are tortured, cut in two, homeless, and persecuted.
Does this mean he exists simply because they were dedicated? Suicide cults have fanatical levels of dedication to their cause, often through self deception and indoctrination. Just look at the likes of Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite.
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