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[Scape211]

Wasn’t sure what heading this fit under, but I met with a buddy of mine recently and we often talk religion and spiritual topics. He used to be a Christian, but had some past experiences that’s put him on the fence. Right now he believes in a monotheistic God, but doesn’t really attribute that to the Christian God. Ive tried to explain why I am a Christian through all the reason, logic, rational thinking side of things and why it stacks up quite well against any other faith I can think of. But he seems more interested in spirit discussion. Specifically spiritual presences, dreams, visions, the collective unconscious. Its definitely uncharted waters for me and harder to relate directly back to God.

Its also fair to mention how many people of all walks experience this. I’ve heard Christians talk about their spiritual encounters, but also Muslims, Atheists, etc. So how/why does this happen? Frankly I know very little about the spirit realm. I’m sure some claims are fake, but I also don’t doubt their are some that very real. How can I properly approach this to learn more? I would love it if there was a logical approach to this much like the logic/reason path I’ve taken for faith. Unfortunately, its not the physical realm so I assume most stuff out there is experiential or someones own interpretation. Anything you have found in your travels would be helpful though.

[jimwalton]

Hi, Scape211. Thanks for writing.

Your friend believes in a monotheistic God, but not necessarily the Christian one. That conversation should focus on who this "god" is in whom he believes, and what the evidence is for that god. After all, we go by the weight of evidence. You'll find on this website under the "Christianity" forum why I consider the evidence points in the direction of the Christian God, namely YHWH and Jesus. But we can discuss this further. At one point in recent days I thought I would be invited to debate those from other religions on the subject of "Why the Christian God is the true God" as opposed to Allah, Krishna, Odin, or whomever. I was just starting to frame up my thoughts when that event fell through, but I have some notes on it.

Obviously your friend believes in the spirit world and spirit beings who interact with humans in visions, dreams, appearances, and the like. Of course, it makes sense that if there is a god/God, there are possibly other spiritual beings as well, as all religions claim.

There have been many stories in the news recently about Muslims having visions of Jesus. Jesus seems to be VERY active in a revival among Muslims, and not just through the inner workings of the Spirit.

I have not heard about atheists having spiritual visions.

> How can I properly approach this to learn more?

What is it you're wanting to learn more about, specifically? That might help me guide you in the right direction.

> I would love it if there was a logical approach to this much like the logic/reason path I’ve taken for faith.

Despite what detractors claim (and the approach some Christians take), there is a logical approach to everything we Christians believe. If you want a blind faith, you close your eyes and mind to even looking at the evidence. If you look for the evidence for the elements of Christian faith, it's there.

Let me know more specifically what you're after (I can't confidently tell from your post), and I'll see if I can guide you.

[Scape211]

I think both of us have a similar view when we compare religions. As I mentioned I did start to take my friend through that process. He doesn't seem to want to hit that road yet. Maybe because he's had poor experiences with faith in the past, maybe because he wants 100% confirmation at the right one (which is doubtful), but either way he seems more focused on the spiritual connections because they are more real. I can give a few examples of things he talked about.

1 - He generally seems to believe in the collective unconscious or each of us as humans having subconscious images within us from birth. A general example would be the mother-child relationship when each subconsciously knows what to do in certain roles or situations. The idea is that these are genetically inherited and not shaped by human experience.

2 - From birth, we are open to all spirits and/or spiritual experiences but tune them out overtime. For example, as a young child you will hear a noise and get scared, but your mom says 'thats just the dryer in the basement' so you tune that noise out. Stuff like that happens and connects to how we can repress memories or details about events. Its also why when someone goes through therapy and remembers key things they blocked out that it becomes so vivid; they don't just remember an event, they remember things like the color of the window drapes or the exact outfit they wore.

3 - Some people (and i think its higher in females by some accounts) are more susceptible to spiritual encounters. For instance, his wife has had a dark presence that visits her from time to time. She has also had encounters where she is in bed and in form of sleep paralysis and the spirit is over her. The only thing she has be able to do to deal with it was call on her past ancestors to get the spirit move away.

Some of this of course sounds out there to me, but I'm also one who hasn't had experiences like this. I also know of the account in 1 Samuel 28 where king Saul goes to a medium and sees the spirit of the now dead prophet Samuel who predicts his death. What do we make of this story? Was it really Samuel? Was it just witch craft? Why would God allow this kind of thing to happen? Or was it all fake? And if it was God, it certainly seems outside his usual methods.

I dont know if any of that helps as a point of reference for discussion. That was the best verse I could think of off the top of my head for this sort of thing. Any others that might shed light will help. Even though my friend may take them with a grain of salt.

[jimwalton]

> He doesn't seem to want to hit that road yet.

That's a little odd. This should logically be the first road. It seems a little backwards to arrive at a position before studying the logic that contributes to the position. I mean, I get it, because most of us make decisions viscerally rather than logically.

> Maybe because he's had poor experiences with faith in the past

Poor experiences are often the culprit. Again, it's a visceral thing.

> maybe because he wants 100% confirmation at the right one

You're right, 100% isn't going to happen. We deal in plausibilities and the weight of evidence, not in 100% confirmation. Some people get that, and the Holy Spirit often brings a person to that place (as He has with me; when I get asked how certain I am of the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, I can honestly say "100%"). But usually we do abductive reasoning: inferring the most reasonable conclusions based on the weight of evidence.

> He generally seems to believe in the collective unconscious or each of us as humans having subconscious images within us from birth

This sounds like a psychological/philosophical position that was manufactured to explain an a priori position rather than anything there is any evidence for. In other words, he had this idea about roles and relationships, hypothesized a possible explanation, and went with it even though there's no evidence for any such thing. My question for him would be, "Where's the evidence?"

> From birth, we are open to all spirits and/or spiritual experience

This is probably true. Children in their innocence and naïveté are accepting of parental positions about God (and even the Tooth Fairy). When we we get old enough to learn the fiction of Santa, The Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, there is often doubt about God as well.

> Some people (and i think its higher in females by some accounts) are more susceptible to spiritual encounters

This is true also. Some people are very attuned to the spirit world, some are more susceptible to it, and others never experience it. There still has to be direction toward the truth, however. There are plenty of false spirits out there.

> his wife has had a dark presence that visits her from time to time.

I believe in dark spirits and haunting experiences. The Bible speaks of the devil and his angels as very real beings. We don't really know how his angels do their work (since God's angels don't possess us), but there are obviously ways they can influence our thoughts (most of what the Bible tells us about Satan is a spirit of deceit, and how we as Christians must take our thoughts captive and not let them be swayed).

> She has also had encounters where she is in bed and in form of sleep paralysis and the spirit is over her

Sleep paralysis is assuredly a legitimate phenomenon. What parts spirit beings play in it is much more debatable. I don't understand what calling on ancestors would accomplish; obviously I would call on Jesus. I have very limited knowledge of sleep paralysis.

> 1 Samuel 28 where king Saul goes to a medium and sees the spirit of the now dead prophet Samuel who predicts his death. What do we make of this story? Was it really Samuel? Was it just witch craft? Why would God allow this kind of thing to happen? Or was it all fake? And if it was God, it certainly seems outside his usual methods.

Consultation of the dead was fairly common in the region during that era. It was strictly prohibited in Israel (that's why Saul went in disguise).

The woman seemed surprised that it was actually Samuel who visited, which tells us that the spirits she's used to dealing with were all part of a grand deceit. Samuel is recognized by his clothes (a particular prophetic garment, apparently). Samuel talks about having been "disturbed", which makes us wonder what kind of state he was in in the afterlife. No explanation is given.

Was it really Samuel? Yes.

Or was it just witchcraft? No. The witch seems surprised when Sam actually really shows up.

Why would God allow this thing to happen? Great question. As far as we can tell, it's to cement the demise of Saul's dynasty and to prophesy about Saul's responsibility for Israel's distress (vv. 17-19). It could also be to warn people about sorcery and necromancy—it only brings ruin.

> And if it was God, it certainly seems outside his usual methods.

The Bible is clear that God uses many different methods and means, even godless kings, desperate sinners, astrology (the magi) and witchcraft. God uses sin and evil to his advantage. We must never hem God in.

> Any others that might shed light will help.

The windows to the spirit world are only cracked open for us to get a glimpse. We are told very little. We know general things like

1. They're for real.
2. There is real spiritual power there.
3. They interact with humans.
4. There is a bona fide spiritual battle going on and our minds are the battleground.
5. The main weapons are deceit vs. truth.

We don't know a whole lot more. But this is enough to make us wary, alert, and hopefully wise to stay close to God.

[Scape211]

Thanks for all the insight. Since starting this talk, my friend sent me a video that he said resonated with him. Here it is if you are curious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycJ0SaNhRH4

He clarified that he doesn't subscribe to the mind valley group or philosophy persay, but I can see how some of it resonates with him. I can see the nuggets of wisdom here; breaking down certain man-made culturescape, thinking more about who you are/what you are doing, spiritual practice to calm your mind and clear it of all the noise. I get it.

But that of course makes me think - to what end? If your goal is to be the best in some avenue of life, you are still within the culture scape. I especially find it interesting how the speaker will talk about how we need to abandon man-made culturscape, but then turns and says ' Great! you are all at level 2 here in Mind Valley!' Um....sounds like you are just making a new culturescape for these people right? It becomes that self-defeating philosophy and again makes me think - whats the point of trading one culture for this new one? He uses Steve Jobs as an example and hes not bad, but hes not a prophet. Sure he fits the mold of a rebel/outcast/different thinker. But he still went within some cultural norms. I can see how this life philosophy makes people better, but it still brings to the question of who or what is the authority?

I plan to challenge my friend to not just seek spirituality, but to understand the god he believes in (he did say he has a monotheistic view). Who is that god? What is he capable of? If hes the one you are trying to connect with he must be important. I think its more important to know him and see what truths he has to align your life with. Rather than just nebulous spirituality. My hope is he will come to a place where he needs to define that god and maybe I can guide him back to logic and seeing the different gods we know in religion and practice to let him realize the true God of the bible. Hopefully this is a good direction to go.

He, much like myself, grew up in the fundamentalist Christian church. It was very judgmental and hypocritical. It was more about the rules and rituals then fostering that relationship with God. It looks like he's trying to do that now, but does not quite see how it connects or refuses to based on his past experience. Any other insight you have would be helpful. I have a feeling this will be a long road, but certainly one worth taking. I often enjoy the journey anyways

[jimwalton]

You are thinking in a good direction. This video is about the same kind of stuff that touches on Buddhism and Hinduism: philosophical spiritualism. Of course there are fascinating insights to be gained, truth that woven all through it, and tidbits of wisdom scattered throughout. In listening to it, I find that there are many things he says that I strongly disagree with. His delivery is smooth, but I think he's dead wrong in many significant ways.

But the point of life, as far as we Christians are concerned, is not being wise or knowledgeable, but instead being free from sin. (Obviously Buddhists and Hindus don't agree with this emphasis.) There is much to be said for wisdom, knowledge, and truth (duh, of course), but the difference between these belief systems and Christianity is vast. To me the real questions at hand are:

1. If there is a God, how does one relate to Him/her/it?
2. If wisdom is the path, (a) how many will truly arrive, and (b) how will one know when one has arrived?
3. If we are now separated from God (and need to "relate" or "arrive" by some process), what makes you think that wisdom or knowledge is the path to breach that gap?
4. What caused the separation to begin with?
5. How do you know all these things? Christianity is different (well, for many reasons, but) because it is a historical religion, whereas the others are philosophical. Anyone can say anything they want (philosophy, the road to happiness or fulfillment, etc.), but the one that conforms to reality is the one to pay attention to. That's why the resurrection is so important. It's not just a way of looking at life, but something that happened in space/time reality.

Spirituality without correspondence to reality is just whimsical optimism based on an illusion of wisdom.