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[Throwaway]

If god is allpowerful what is stopping him from killing satan, or taking his powers away from him?

I mean killing your own son is kinda messed up i know, but what about taking away his powers?

[jimwalton]

In Lord of the Rings, Sam keeps encouraging Frodo to kill Gollum, and yet Frodo refuses to do it. Frodo says he has a sense that Gollum has a role to play in the destruction of the ring, and so he spares his life. And Gollum did indeed have both a significant and critical role to play. Tolkein was a Christian, and so we easily see theology in his trilogy. Satan has a significant and critical role to play in the destruction of evil, so there are reasons God doesn't kill him.

[Meathead]

This is a good explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to relay this. I will think about this for a while. I think part of what I struggle with is the sometimes-used claim that "anything God does is good/moral/non-evil". I feel like a more balanced and respectable position would be that God has no problem using or facilitating immoral/evil actions/events if it can teach a lesson in the long run. It doesn't make God evil, but makes the evaluation of his works seem more reasonable than just saying "no everything God does is good and moral I don't care what anyone says" (not that you were doing that, just thinking out loud).

[jimwalton]

> I think part of what I struggle with is the sometimes-used claim that "anything God does is good/moral/non-evil". I feel like a more balanced and respectable position would be that God has no problem using or facilitating immoral/evil actions/events if it can teach a lesson in the long run.

It's true that God can only do good. He didn't make Satan evil, nor does God do anything wrong or bad. But if someone else is doing bad by their own free will, and God chooses to use that for good purposes, then God is doing good, not bad.

For instance, if a policeman uses a drug runner to find the supplier, that may be the same kind of idea. The cop isn't doing the bad (or even endorsing it), but is using it for good purposes to bring about a good end (bringing down that drug supply chain).

[Meathead]

Hmmm. Here's two questions for you:

1. Has God ever claimed in the Bible that he never does anything bad? Where do we get the concept that he never does anything bad/wrong/evil - does it come from the concept that God is the "ultimate good"? Is it impossible for God to do anything bad/wrong/evil?

2. Even just speaking hypothetically, what would be required for you to believe that God had done a bad thing? What evidence would you need in order to conclude that God had indeed done something evil? Again - I'm not trying to set you up for a "GOTCHA!", I'm not waiting for your response to say "WELL HOW ABOUT THIS FROM THE BIBLE", I'm genuinely curious about what - if anything - God could do that would make you think: "wait, hold on, that was definitely evil."

[jimwalton]

> Has God ever claimed in the Bible that he never does anything bad?

James 1.13-17 says that God doesn't tempt us with evil and that all good gifts are from Him. There are hundreds of places in the Bible where it says God is good (Ps. 25.8; 34.8. et al.). Job 34.12 says God doesn't do anything that's evil or wrong. In Genesis 18.25 Abraham affirms that God only does what is right.

And therefore it is impossible that God does anything bad, wrong, or evil.

> what would be required for you to believe that God had done a bad thing?

Evidence.

> What evidence would you need in order to conclude that God had indeed done something evil?

It would have to be conclusive, irrefutable, and undeniable. We are told hundreds of times that God is good, we are able to observe Him being good, and we know that our knowledge of things is quite limited and often color with our own biases. If we're going to judge God as having done something evil, we need to have a strong case.

[Meathead]

I appreciate the thoughtful response. Can you give me your best example of what that might look like? What sort of a case might do the trick? I could give you an example of how to falsify any one of the beliefs I hold. Can you do the same? (This is a genuine question, not angry-sounding)

[jimwalton]

> Can you give me your best example of what that might look like?

That is the question of the hour, and I'm not sure how to answer. I happen to think there honestly is no such thing, but if it were presented I have to give it honest consideration.

Part of the issue is that God is ultimately neither provable nor falsifiable by logic or science. The only thing that will undeniably prove Him is if He shows up and there is absolutely no doubt, based on the nature of His revelation. The only thing that will undeniably disprove Him is death, and either nothing afterwards (in which case we wouldn't know since we cease to exist, perceive and think) or another deity is waiting for me, in which case I gulp deeply and go, "Oh, I really blew this."

Other beliefs may be provable or falsifiable, but with God it's not a matter of proof but of probability—we infer the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. The word the Bible uses for that is "faith." The words we use for it in the general culture are logic, inference, and plausibility.