Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[jimwalton]

> Why does god only give us 2 choices? To either be with him (Which sounds horrible) or be tortured (Which also sounds horrible)

It's the nature of reality, like pregnancy: you either are or you aren't. There's no quasi-pregnant state. With God it makes sense: if you aren't in His presence, can't also be in His presence. It's about a relationship. Do you love God or don't you? Do you want to spend eternity in a love relationship with Him or don't you? If you don't, then you're choosing to NOT be with Him.

>> God can't control your free will
> I never told him to, I don't know where you got that from.

It was an illustration of one thing among many that God can't do.

> So he's weak? Why call him a god?

It's beyond me why you think that because God is not self-contradictory you conclude He is weak. It's nonsense. God can't make a square circle, so He's weak? God is perfect truth and can't lie, so that means He's weak? Silliness.

> Exactly, god is torturing us, he is burning us forever, he's the one lighting the ovens in hell, right?

Hell was created for the devil and his angels. God lit the fires of hell for them, not for you. If you choose to go there by rejecting God, don't blame God.

> No, it's 100% god's fault, he's the one who created hell and makes souls go there, he could take me to heaven if he wanted, but he doesn't.

He can't take you to heaven if you refuse to God. Love that is forced isn't love—it's a self-contradiction. You seem to want to think that truth, reason, and reality don't have anything to do with this stuff. And you're dead wrong about that.

> Yes he did, Leviticus 20:13, he commanded my death.

Ah, you're gay. If you've read the whole chapter (and the rest of the Bible), you've learned that any relationship that doesn't mirror the reality and truth of God's holiness and righteousness results in death. There are relationships that do mirror love, holiness, and righteousness. God can't change reality.

> Okay, then why does he put me in hell? Like you were talking about earlier, why can't he just annihilate me? I would prefer that

Annihilation is not justice. If that's true, you could be the most monstrous human being (Hitler, Jeffrey Daumer, Jeffrey Epstein) and get away with it. At the end, you die. Cool. No accountability there. Do what you want, die at the end. Bingo.

> Of course I have, but those are just base animal nature, it's not evil.

You didn't say "evil," you said, "I've never done anything wrong."

> No, death penalty.

Don't you believe killing is wrong? Barbaric? Unjust?

But if that punishment is just, then it's just for God to give YOU a fair punishment for what you've done.

> But if god can create any possibility, can he not rehabilitate everyone?

My goodness, you love to believe in contradictions. God can't create any possibility. He can't create a finite eternity. He can't make timeless time. He can't be a truthful liar.

> I fear rape, and if hell is fear, then that will happen to me.

No. Not true that whatever you fear is what will happen to you. You will get exactly what is appropriate treatment—that's what will happen.

> Okay, then what is hell? Because the bible says it's fire

As I mentioned, fire is an image the Bible uses to speak of torment. Hell isn't fire any more than heaven is harps. Let's look at what the Bible says.

• Hell is a place of darkness (Mt. 8.12; Jude 13). It can't be fire and darkness, can it? These are images, not physical realities.
• Hell is a place of separation (Lk. 13.27-28; 2 Thes. 1.7-9)
• Hell is a place of remorse.
• Hell is a place of torment: Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 8.12; 22.13; 25.30; Lk. 13.28)—the agony of separation from God.
• Hell is fire (Mt. 13.42, 50)
• Hell is described as being "cut to pieces" (Mt. 24.51)—again, obviously not literal. Someone cut to pieces wouldn't continue to exist.

Why is fire the primary image, so it seems?

1. Fire is a symbol and a mechanism of God’s judgment (Lev. 10.2; Rev. 20.9; Ezk. 38.22; Gn. 19.24, Jer. 4.4; et. al)
2. Fire was a primary method of destruction.
3. Fire is an adequate metaphor for torment.
4. Fire is timeless. Every culture in every point of history knows what fire is.

I hope that helps.

[Socks]

> It's the nature of reality

Did god not write the nature of reality? Why did he make it this way.

Why can't there be a 3rd afterlife that's just like earth, where we're not with god but not suffering either?

> God can't make a square circle, so He's weak?

Yes, you admitted that he can't do everything imaginable, how is he a god if he's bound by mortal imagination?

> God lit the fires of hell for them, not for you.

THEN WHY THE HELL WILL HE PUT ME THERE? CAN HE NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT?

> God can't change reality.

Why not?

> At the end, you die. Cool. No accountability there.

Is death not accountability? They can never feel happy again.

Also, why are you comparing me to Hitler and Dahmer? I've never done anything as bad as them.

> You didn't say "evil," you said, "I've never done anything wrong."

Well, I've been rude, I've been angry.

I'm talking about "Wrong" from an explicitly moral perspective, not just making a mistake.

> Don't you believe killing is wrong? Barbaric? Unjust?

Only if done to people who are undeserving.

> But if that punishment is just, then it's just for God to give YOU a fair punishment for what you've done.

What have I done?

> My goodness, you love to believe in contradictions. God can't create any possibility.

How is rehabilitating sick people a contradiction?

> You will get exactly what is appropriate treatment

And what is an appropriate treatment? Getting burned and tortured forever?

> I hope that helps.

It really doesn't, at all, hell is dark flaming teeth? I still don't have a clear vision of it.

[jimwalton]

> Did god not write the nature of reality? Why did he make it this way.

No, He did not. Reality is what it is based on the nature of God. God can't change His own nature (because He's eternal and unchangeable), and therefore reality follows in step. It can only be what it is.

> Why can't there be a 3rd afterlife that's just like earth, where we're not with god but not suffering either?

I invite you to come to the truth now, and not play your chances in you telling God what is fair and what is not. If third chances are not the nature of reality, and it's not possible, then make your decision now.

>> God can't make a square circle, so He's weak?

> Yes, you admitted that he can't do everything imaginable, how is he a god if he's bound by mortal imagination?

To defend an indefensible position, you've dipped into the absurd to blame God for being self-consistent. It's hard to have a rational conversation with someone who entertains that the illogical is logical.

> THEN WHY THE HELL WILL HE PUT ME THERE? CAN HE NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT?

I've said it three times already: you'll be putting yourself there. If you don't be with God, and if you don't want to have a relationship with God, that's your choice and you can't blame Him. He wants to be with you and He wants to have a relationship with you. Don't blame Him for the lack of relationship.

>> God can't change reality.

> Why not?

Because reality is based on the nature of God, and God is unchangeable. You can't logically or reasonably fault a non-changing entity for not changing.

But I can just imagine that if God changed from time to time, that would be a point of accusation also.

> Is death not accountability? They can never feel happy again.

Of course not. If death is a cessation, there is no accountability there. You do what you want, and then it ends. Woo-hoo! You get away with whatever barbaric nastiness you perpetrated in life.

> Also, why are you comparing me to Hitler and Dahmer? I've never done anything as bad as them.

I didn't compare you to Hitler and Dahmer. I used them as examples of people who should be accountable for what they did during their lives.

>> Don't you believe killing is wrong? Barbaric? Unjust?

> Only if done to people who are undeserving.

And who gets to decide how to define "undeserving"? Is aborting babies killing the undeserving? Is euthanasia? Does your position make vigilantism OK? I'm curious about these, authentically.

> What have I done?

Well, you at least admitted being rude and angry, but I'll bet there's more on the list.

>> My goodness, you love to believe in contradictions. God can't create any possibility.

> How is rehabilitating sick people a contradiction?

It's not. What's contradictory is assuming God can make a square circle, that God can change Himself when He is unchangeable, and that if God controls your free will it's still free will. None of these make sense.

> And what is an appropriate treatment? Getting burned and tortured forever?

You're not listening. Several times I have said "One thing we can count on is that God will only do what is appropriate." I've also said that hell may not be eternal. So get off that soapbox, because you're grinding me on a point I never stood on.

> hell is dark flaming teeth?

No, of course hell is not dark flaming teeth. Hell is the agony one experiences being separated from God, who is life, goodness, truth, peace, and joy. Hell is the personal torment one will experience when all of those possibilities are removed from existence.

[Socks]

> No, He did not. Reality is what it is based on the nature of God. God can't change His own nature

So god is not at fault for his own crimes?

> I invite you to come to the truth now, and not play your chances in you telling God what is fair and what is not.

I haven't been swayed yet, he still seems very unfair to me.

> To defend an indefensible position, you've dipped into the absurd to blame God for being self-consistent. It's hard to have a rational conversation with someone who entertains that the illogical is logical.

How is it illogical to assume that an infinite being should be capable of infinite possibilities?

> He wants to be with you and He wants to have a relationship with you.

then why can't he take me to heaven?

> But I can just imagine that if God changed from time to time, that would be a point of accusation also.

No, if god actually became good and moral, I wouldn't be mad at him.

> Woo-hoo! You get away with whatever barbaric nastiness you perpetrated in life.

How is living a peaceful life "barbaric nastiness"?

> I used them as examples of people who should be accountable for what they did during their lives.

Do you not feel the same about gays and heretics?

> And who gets to decide how to define "undeserving"?

Humans.

> Is aborting babies killing the undeserving?

Yes.

> Is euthanasia?

Not if it's consensual.

> Does your position make vigilantism OK?

If it's in self-defense, but I think criminals should go through the justice system.

> but I'll bet there's more on the list.

Like what?

> None of these make sense.

Exactly, that's why I think he's weak, if he was truly all-powerful, he would be able to break the binds of mortal comprehension.

> Several times I have said "One thing we can count on is that God will only do what is appropriate." I've also said that hell may not be eternal.

But you haven't told me what hell is, what is "Appropriate" for me? Until I get a clear answer, I can't believe you.

> Hell is the agony one experiences being separated from God, who is life, goodness, truth, peace, and joy. Hell is the personal torment one will experience when all of those possibilities are removed from existence.

Okay, but what does it look like? What does it feel like? Earlier in this thread you said that hell is not personal because I won't be tortured by my fears.

I'm incredibly confused, just give me a solid picture of hell already.

[jimwalton]

> So god is not at fault for his own crimes?

God has no crimes, so it's not a logical sentence. It's like asking if I'm responsible for my own time travel.

> I haven't been swayed yet, he still seems very unfair to me.

You're entitled to your opinions, just don't blame or fault God for your own choices.

> How is it illogical to assume that an infinite being should be capable of infinite possibilities?

Because ontology is different from activity. All of the "omni"s have to be thought through, because they're not just casually explained as "Well, everything." For instance, does an omniscience being know what it's like to learn? Well, that's an absurd and self-contradictory possibility, so we have to say that the omniscience of an infinite being cannot possibly include that the knows what it's like to learn. Ontology is not reduced by the absurd. By the same token, we can't claim that if God were really omnipotent, he could make a rock he can't lift. But this is another absurdity that has nothing to do with reality or that God is an infinite being. So you have to use reasoning when defining.

> then why can't he take me to heaven?

Heaven is for people who love God. God can take you to heaven if you will come to Him in love. But if drags you into heaven when you think he's a criminal, He's unfair to people, and that's He's neither good nor moral, that's something God won't do. It's about relationship. Until you change your mind, you don't want to be with God (especially for eternity), and so He's not going to force you to do that (you'd just think He was a jerk if he forced you anyway, so what's the point).

> How is living a peaceful life "barbaric nastiness"?

I was talking about the perpetrators of evil, like Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, and their ilk who would never be called to account if life just ended in death and that was it.

As far as you, you're guilty of blasphemy. You false accuse God of being a criminal, unfair to people, and that's He's neither good nor moral. It's malicious and false slander, and it's even worse if you are convincing others of the same lies.

> Do you not feel the same about gays and heretics?

No, not really. But no matter who we are, whether good or bad, straight or gay, truthful or heretical, intellect or illiterate, we are accountable for the way we live in life.

>> And who gets to decide how to define "undeserving"?

> Humans.

I'm sure you'll find quite a lack of consensus here.

>> Is aborting babies killing the undeserving?

> Yes.

I'm sure you'll find quite a lack of consensus here. If humans get to decide, it just becomes the will of the powerful.

> "Vigilantism" If it's in self-defense, but I think criminals should go through the justice system.

Vigilantism is never self-defense. It's bounty hunting, whether by permission or not.

> Exactly, that's why I think he's weak, if he was truly all-powerful, he would be able to break the binds of mortal comprehension.

He has, but what He won't do is enslave your free will by forcing you to decide in a certain direction. Again, that's self-contradictory. Nor will He coerce love, which is also self-contradictory and self-defeating.

> what does [hell] look like? What does it feel like?

We don't know. Does it matter? Suppose it's like our world, but always a lousy weather day, people angry at each other, violence and pain, hostile relationships, and having to listen to accordion music.

Suppose it's mental, emotional, and spiritual torment full of regret that you had the truth right in front of you and you rejected it, over and over because of your anger and bias?

Suppose it's never being able to forgive yourself or others because people lied to you, and you lied to them, and that's how you all got in this mess?

Suppose it's life without a shred of love, hope, optimism, happiness, joy, peace, or forgiveness. Just people hating each other, depressed, angry, frustrated, and bitter.

Suppose it's all of the above: stupidity, regret, shame, and hostility that just never end. There will never be escape from it. And no matter how much you scream out for relief, no relief ever comes. The worst of all possible worlds.

There's a solid picture of hell for you.

[Socks]

> God has no crimes

How is causing people to suffer not a crime? how is calling for innocent people's death not a crime?

> don't blame or fault God for your own choices

He's the one who's choosing not to let me into heaven.

> God can take you to heaven if you will come to Him in love.

That's the thing, it's hard to love a god who called for my death and commanded his army to execute my ancestors.

If it's true that he can't change, how can I love someone who is unable to not want me dead?

> I'm sure you'll find quite a lack of consensus here.

That's why debate is useful.

Pretty much every human culture on earth has always agreed that murder and theft are wrong, every society on earth has also agreed upon some sort of lawful basis, why do we need god for that?

> If humans get to decide, it just becomes the will of the powerful.

How so? America is steadily going in a very good and inclusive direction without the help of god, at least it was before the Democrats and Republicans cheated Bernie.

> what He won't do is enslave your free will by forcing you to decide in a certain direction.

Why do you keep constantly bringing up this point? I never claimed it.

> Suppose it's like our world, but always a lousy weather day, people angry at each other, violence and pain, hostile relationships

That sounds just about like the shithole god's put me in already.

> Suppose it's mental, emotional, and spiritual torment full of regret that you had the truth right in front of you and you rejected it, over and over because of your anger and bias?

> Suppose it's life without a shred of love, hope, optimism, happiness, joy, peace, or forgiveness. Just people hating each other, depressed, angry, frustrated, and bitter.

> Suppose it's all of the above: stupidity, regret, shame, and hostility that just never end. There will never be escape from it. And no matter how much you scream out for relief, no relief ever comes. The worst of all possible worlds.

Why would God create a place as horrible as that?

[jimwalton]

> How is causing people to suffer not a crime?

Is it a crime for a judge to send someone to prison to suffer there, or is it justice?

> He's the one who's choosing not to let me into heaven.

No, YOU are the one choosing to not go. You don't want anything to do with God. it's your choice whether to love or reject Him. If you choose to reject Him, then you choose a life separated from and devoid of everything He is: love, joy, peace, grace, etc.

> If it's true that he can't change, how can I love someone who is unable to not want me dead?

He wants you alive. He wants to share His life and love with you. But that has to correspond to reality (His holiness, righteousness, and love), not to sentimentality.

> Pretty much every human culture on earth has always agreed that murder and theft are wrong, every society on earth has also agreed upon some sort of lawful basis, why do we need god for that?

Since you think there is some kind of universal and objective moral standard, you have to seriously consider where that came from. If there is such a standard, as you seem to agree, then that standard has to have an ultimate source, such that the wrongness of murder or theft are transcendently true at all times, regardless of whether someone believes it or not. It makes sense that the source of our personal, objective moral law must also be personal, moral, and objective. That points us towards the existence of God.

>> If humans get to decide, it just becomes the will of the powerful.
> How so?

Oh my. We learn this by politics, business, history, religion, and economics. Everything tells us that money and power rule the world. This goes FARRRRR beyond Bernie Sanders.

> Why do you keep constantly bringing up this point? I never claimed it.

You seem to want God to override your free will and drag you into heaven.

> That sounds just about like the shithole god's put me in already.

You ain't seen nothing yet. This world still has access to plenty of happiness, helpfulness, forgiveness, love, and grace. Those will all be no more in hell.

> Why would God create a place as horrible as that?

He created it for Satan and His angels. It's pure agony for Him that people choose to reject Him and His presence, following Satan right through the door.

So here's the scene: God invites each person into a loving relationship with himself. He has prepared a wonderful place for them, and leaves the door wide open. It doesn't make God barbarous that a person refuses to come in and chooses of their own free will to stay outside in the chaos. There's a Book of Life, but there's no Book of Death. But people who reject God choose to be separated from him, and they will go to a fate that was never meant to be theirs. We are free agents, and the choices we get to make regarding spiritual truths are real choices. God does not force anyone towards heaven or hell. Those choices are ours alone to make.

God loves you (Jn. 3.16), knows that you can't save yourself (since no one is worthy), and so has made every provision for your rescue, offering it as a free gift to all comers. We must repudiate what separates us from God (repent of our sins), and turn to him in love (very different from "religion." It's much like a marriage ceremony, where you forsake all others to commit yourself in love to the one who loves you.) But since love must always be chosen and never forced, he informs and invites all people to come to him for rescue (salvation). The choice belongs to each individual, and it is always ours to make. No worthiness is involved, but only choice and love. All sincere comers will be accepted. All who refuse and choose to have nothing to do with God will endure the consequences of that decision: life without God, and eternity without God, if they get all the way to the end of life spurning his every invitation. They weren't created bound for hell, and Jer. 18.1-12 lets us know that they always have a legitimate choice to do as they wish with their lives. God will make adjustments according to their free-will choices. The path to hell is never a certainty unless the person in question makes it such.

The Bible pictures it this way: Let's suppose there are two doors, one leading to eternal separation from God, and one leading to eternal joy in his presence. Door #1 was only prepared for Satan and his sycophants, and door #2 was prepared for all people. Jesus is standing between the doors, and as people approach, he expresses his love for them and invites them to enter door #2 and bliss. But when people grab the handle to door #1, he cries out to them, "Don't do that. It's a terrible thing. You don't want to go there. Come this way, into door #2." But they choose to enter door #1 anyway.

[Socks]

> Is it a crime for a judge to send someone to prison to suffer there, or is it justice?

It depends on the crime.

> He wants you alive.

Why did he command my death?

> Since you think there is some kind of universal and objective moral standard, you have to seriously consider where that came from. If there is such a standard, as you seem to agree, then that standard has to have an ultimate source

I don't think it's objective, just the majority.

It comes from our instincts, we evolved to love one another, as that aids with social cohesion and makes it easier to propagate and survive, kindness is human nature.

> You seem to want God to override your free will and drag you into heaven.

It is my will to go to heaven, of course I want to be there, I just don't want to follow the laws.

> This world still has access to plenty of happiness, helpfulness, forgiveness, love, and grace

Where? I haven't seen it.

> He created [hell] for Satan and His angels. It's pure agony for Him that people choose to reject Him and His presence, following Satan right through the door.

(note, I have read all 3 paragraphs, and they were touching, but I'm just not really smart enough to respond to it all)

If he made it for Satan, why does he allow so many good people to go there? How is Annihilation or forgiveness not more merciful?

[jimwalton]

> It depends on the crime.

Agreed. Every punishment and reward should be appropriate to what was done.

> Why did he command my death?

What he wants is your love, but He can't command that. There are relationships that mirror all of the pertinent aspects of God's nature, and there are relationships that don't. What he wants is for you to care about your relationship with Him more than any earthly relationship. It's that way for everyone.

> I don't think it's objective, just the majority.

Yeah, that's what happened in Nazi Germany, too. It's not a position that holds through all situations.

> It comes from our instincts, we evolved to love one another, as that aids with social cohesion and makes it easier to propagate and survive, kindness is human nature.

I understand this is your opinion, but this doesn't hold, either. Kai Nielsen, a prolific writer defending the atheist position, says that reason alone cannot provide a moral framework. Moral reasoning is only valid if God exists.

It's interesting. You blame God for suffering, and maybe claim He even designed and perpetuates suffering, but morality is a human construct. It's a fascinating end-runaround. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Joel Marks, another atheist, writes, "The long and the short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality. I call the premise of this argument 'hard atheism.' ... A 'soft atheist' would hold that one could be an atheist and still believe in morality. And indeed, the whole crop of 'New Atheists' are softies of this kind. So was I, until I experienced my shocking epiphany that the religious fundamentalists are correct: without God, there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality."

> It is my will to go to heaven, of course I want to be there, I just don't want to follow the laws.

Heaven is a place infused with the presence of God. Why do you want that?

But you don't want to "follow the laws." What in society works that way? School? Jobs? Relationships? Anything?

>> This world still has access to plenty of happiness, helpfulness, forgiveness, love, and grace
> Where? I haven't seen it.

Oh, my. You've never seen anyone laugh? You haven't seen anything on the news or the Internet about people helping each other during COVID, even sacrificially? You've never seen anyone forgive anyone else?

I have good news for you. God loves you and wants a relationship with you. He offers to forgive your sins if you will come to Him in love. He will grant you life, love, joy, and forgiveness.

> If he made it for Satan, why does he allow so many good people to go there?

He is doing what is necessary to keep you out of hell. but you need to respond to Him. he's not going to force you into His presence.
Part of the problem here is that you think there is such a thing as good and evil. God is responsible for evil, you say, but people are responsible for good. And you accuse God of sending good people to hell, yet you have admitted that goodness isn't objective, it's just the stance of the majority (and therefore may not be good at all, depending on the situation). And you claim this, I assume, with the idea that people have worth and should not be treated unfairly. But people only have worth if they are the creations of One who has given them worth. If there is no God, we're nothing but the agglomeration of chemicals and the result of natural selection and genetic mutations, and there is nothing in that mix that gives worth. The questions of goodness, morality, and worth are strictly theistic property.
If you're an atheist, you can't believe in any of those or lay claim to them.

> How is Annihilation not more merciful?

Annihilation contains no sense of justice. people do what they want and then vaporize. Abuse children, rape women, cheat others, murder people, and then die. It's over.

> How is forgiveness not more merciful?

Forgiveness IS more merciful. That's why God offers forgiveness to anyone who will accept it and come into relationship with Him.

[Socks]

> What he wants is for you to care about your relationship with Him more than any earthly relationship.

Why? Does he have an ego?

> Kai Nielsen, a prolific writer defending the atheist position, says that reason alone cannot provide a moral framework.
Well I disagree with him, that sounds vapid.

> The long and the short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality.

I disagree with him too, I'm not an Atheist.

> Heaven is a place infused with the presence of God. Why do you want that?

Because I fear torture.

> But you don't want to "follow the laws." What in society works that way? School? Jobs? Relationships? Anything?

None, that's why life sucks.

But, like you said, god is unable to change the laws, cause he's not all-powerful.

> You've never seen anyone laugh?

I mean, sure, I like comedy.

> You haven't seen anything on the news or the Internet about people helping each other during COVID, even sacrificially?

No, I don't watch the news 'cause it makes em paranoid, what little I have seen is just cops shooting people and idiots protesting.

> You've never seen anyone forgive anyone else?

Rarely.

> God loves you and wants a relationship with you.

Why do I have to sacrifice my earthly life for that?

> He offers to forgive your sins

What sins? Why are they bad?

> He is doing what is necessary to keep you out of hell.

By sending me to hell?

> I assume, with the idea that people have worth and should not be treated unfairly. But people only have worth if they are the creations of One who has given them worth. If there is no God, we're nothing but the agglomeration of chemicals and the result of natural selection and genetic mutations, and there is nothing in that mix that gives worth.

Oh my god, this is genuinely disgusting to me, I'm so goddamned angry right now.

We don't need Yahwey to be worthy of love, that's an evil sentiment, but beyond that I do believe in greater entities, I worship Cernunnos, I believe all of creation is worthy of love.

> Annihilation contains no sense of justice. people do what they want and then vaporize. Abuse children, rape women, cheat others, murder people, and then die. It's over.

But I don't do those things, I try to be kind to everyone despite the fact they all anger me constantly, I have never gone out of my way to harm someone (At least not since I was a child).

Why do I deserve to suffer? Why should I be tortured alongside Hitler? Why couldn't god just let me rest?