Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Learner]

i know there’s a number of christians who believe you’re unconscious until the resurrection of the body so you can just answer the questions for the new earth.

• do we keep our memories and thoughts, likes and dislikes in heaven, the things that make us “us”
• what do you think we’ll be doing in heaven? just waiting for the new earth?
• are victims of rape and murder whose attackers happened to be saved before death expected to have forgiven them before heaven or the new earth, considering they have to spend eternity there
• where do you get your ideas of heaven or new earth besides scripture?
• do we age in heaven or on the new earth? do babies who died stay babies? do mentally handicapped stay handicapped? do we keep the intelligence we died with?

thank you so so so much

[jimwalton]

> do we keep our memories and thoughts, likes and dislikes in heaven, the things that make us “us”

As far as we know, yes. In 1 Corinthians 13.12 and 1 John 3.2 indicate that in Heaven our knowledge will be made full, not taken away. 1 Corinthians 15.53 indicates that the changes will be from mortal to immortal, as if immortality is an added feature. There's nothing that indicates our minds will be erased.

> what do you think we’ll be doing in heaven? just waiting for the new earth?

Heaven is always described as a productive place, not one of sitting around doing nothing. In Luke 19.11-27, Jesus tells a parable about "when the kingdom of God appears." Many people believe that he's talking about heaven and hell. In the story, people in "heaven" are rewarded with jobs and responsibility, much like we have here on earth. Since the book of Revelation describes heaven as being on this earth (Rev. 21.2), and it describes heaven as a city (Rev. 21.10), it makes sense to me that life in heaven will be filled with productive labor, meaningful activity, great relationships, and lots to do.

Watchman Nee wrote, "Heaven is not a place of inactivity, but we shall be called to a greater work." The reward for responsibility is more responsibility. To him who has, more will be given.

Isaiah 65 makes it sound like people will build houses (v. 21) and do work that is productive and fulfilling (23). Zechariah 14.16 makes mention of worship, as does much of Revelation. Matthew 25.14-30 also mentions "I will put you in charge of many things."

> are victims of rape and murder whose attackers happened to be saved before death expected to have forgiven them before heaven or the new earth, considering they have to spend eternity there

In Heaven we will be filled with the mind of God in the sense that we will see things as He sees them (1 John 3.2). We will have a divine capacity to forgive and we will understand what true justice is. Our hurts will be taken away (Revelation 21.4) and all things will be made new (Rev. 21.5).

> where do you get your ideas of heaven or new earth besides scripture

Nowhere. Scripture is my only source for what I know about Heaven.

> do we age in heaven or on the new earth?

No. There is no time there, and since our bodies are not corruptible (1 Corinthians 15.53), aging is an impossible concept.

> do babies who died stay babies?

We're not told, but it sounds nonsensical to me that babies would stay eternally as babies. They will be transformed into a different body type (1 Corinthians 15.40; 52).

> do mentally handicapped stay handicapped?

We're not told, but it sounds nonsensical to me. Instead, they will be whole.

> do we keep the intelligence we died with?

No. Back to what I said previously: In 1 Corinthians 13.12 and 1 John 3.2 indicate that in Heaven our knowledge will be made full. Our minds will be filled in with pieces we were missing.

[Righteous One]

> In Luke 19.11-27, Jesus tells a parable about "when the kingdom of God appears."

I disagree with that sentence. Here's Luke 19 in the ESV. Verse 11 says that Jesus "proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately."

> Since the book of Revelation describes heaven as being on this earth (Rev. 21.2), and it describes heaven as a city (Rev. 21.10)

Here's Revelation 21:1-12 in the ESV:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem
9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

Verse 2 does not describe "heaven as being on this earth". It states "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband".

Verse 10 does not describe "heaven as a city". It states "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God".

[jimwalton]

> Verse 11 says...

The idea behind v. 11 is that there was a messianic fervor surrounding Jesus, and those who were with him at the time felt that they were on the cusp of seeing the new kingdom appear. Craig Keener comments, "If Jesus were the Messiah, proclaiming the kingdom and saying things like salvation was 'today' (v. 9), Jewish hearers would naturally expect the kingdom right away (Acts 1.6). The most common expectation of the kingdom would include the subjugation of Rome and other Gentiles."

It's reasonable to think Jesus is addressing with his parable the messianic expectation and the appearance of the kingdom of God, especially since v. 12 poses the situation of "to have himself appointed king and then return." Verse 27 also alludes to the king establishing his kingdom, as if the kingdom of God is appearing.

> Verse 2 does not describe "heaven as being on this earth".

The perspective of the vision is the seer, John, on Earth. Verse 2 describes the Holy City (the ideal Jerusalem, the *new* eschatological Jerusalem in its perfected and eternal state, the heavenly city of salvation hope [Heb. 12.22], the Jerusalem above [Gal. 4.26ff.] where our real citizenship lies [Phil. 3.20], i.e., Heaven) as descending from heaven above to Earth itself. Kittel says, "As God's throne (v. 5), heaven is an integrating focus for the present and future blessings of salvation in the new aeon." Heaven is where God's presence is. J. Massyngberde Ford writes, "Thus Heaven and Earth are fused," as v. 3 would indicate.

> Verse 10 does not describe "heaven as a city".

Rev. 21.2 does. The "bride" of v. 9 is the holy city (v. 2). V. 10 follows in the same thought, presenting Heaven as the Holy City, descending from the sky (heaven) to Earth. Isaiah 61.10 reveals it as the community of God, those who have been glorified and abide with God. "Heaven" is where the community of God has been gathered to His presence, and here it is portrayed as a city descending to Earth for its eternal "rest."

So I disagree with you. I'm convinced the textual evidence supports my assertion. But let's talk some more. You're always a pleasure to dialogue with.

[Rogue One]

>> are victims of rape and murder whose attackers happened to be saved before death expected to have forgiven them before heaven or the new earth, considering they have to spend eternity there

> In Heaven we will be filled with the mind of God in the sense that we will see things as He sees them (1 John 3.2). We will have a divine capacity to forgive and we will understand what true justice is. Our hurts will be taken away (Revelation 21.4) and all things will be made new (Rev. 21.5).

You didn't answer yes or no. So, if you don't mind, for the sake of clarity, please answer yes or no. The question was must a victim of some horrid crime against them, forgive the unrepentant transgressor(s) BEFORE DEATH in order to receive the grace of God?

> Is God's love for the abused dependant upon them forgiving the unrepentant abuser(s) BEFORE DEATH?

Yes or no please.

Thanks

P.S.– I realise I have read the original question wrong. In the case of the attacker who is saved, one must conclude they repented in which case the victim would be just to forgive them. Nevertheless, do you believe a victim should forgive regardless of repentance? Thanks

[jimwalton]

> must a victim of some horrid crime against them, forgive the unrepentant transgressor(s) BEFORE DEATH in order to receive the grace of God?

I would say no. Our entrance to Heaven is based on whether or not we have the nature of Jesus inside of us instead of the sin nature. Our entrance to Heaven is not works-based (you didn't forgive this guy, so you don't get in).

> Is God's love for the abused dependant upon them forgiving the unrepentant abuser(s) BEFORE DEATH?

No. There's no indication in Scripture that God's love for us is dependent on us forgiving others. Even while we were sinners, Christ died for us (Jn. 3.16; Rom. 5.8).

> Nevertheless, do you believe a victim should forgive regardless of repentance? Thanks

In the Bible, forgiveness is almost always conditioned on repentance. Almost always. But there are a few occasions where it is not, which means that God is showing us that even though repentance is a condition for forgiveness, we are free to forgive each other by grace even though there is no repentance; it's always an option for us (though not required).

[Rogue One]

Excellent answer. Thank you.