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[Dominator]

How sure are you you will go to Heaven?

[jimwalton]

100%. The Bible has been verified to me as reliable so many times that I have absolutely no doubt about its veracity and its clarity about salvation and heaven. We are told how salvation works, the conditions for salvation, and the consequences of salvation. I have satisfied the criteria without question, and am 100% sure I will spend eternity with God.

[Dominator]

I'm interested as to what your interpret the rod verses to be? – what they really mean.

“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.” (Prov. 22:15)

“He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.” (Prov. 13:24)

“Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.” (Prov. 23:13-14)

“The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother.” (Prov. 29:15)

Do you consider it acceptable to strike your child?

[jimwalton]

Yes, I spanked my children. We were very careful about how and when we did it, making sure it was properly disciplinary and not in anger. There was always conversation before it. We also used other strategies to discipline our children. My children are grown now, and are responsible, intelligent, hard-working people, good husbands and wives and excellent parents.

Prov. 22.15. Spanking is acceptable, but not required. Used properly and with the right attitude and application, physical discipline can be an effective tool for shaping behavior.

Prov. 13.24. This verse is not necessarily advocating corporeal punishment, though that's clearly allowable. The main thrust of the verse is that proper discipline—whether verbal, behavioral, or corporal—is not only valuable but necessary in shaping children (and even adults).

Prov. 23.13-14. Parents have a huge responsibility to train and equip their children for life, but also to teach them to be good, kind, responsible, and wise. Discipline is an important part of that picture. I do think that that verse is also meaning to say that a person should realize that doing whatever it takes to keep our children away from sin should not bring guilt on a parent. In other words... your child's soul is more important than the effects of temporary punishment.

Prov. 29.15. I think we are seeing in the streets of America the result of children who were not properly disciplined, trained, or endowed with values or respect. They don't think well, they are violent, entitled, and misguided. Their effect on society is negative, not positive.

[Dominator]

Thanks for your reply Jim,

I think children should NOT be smacked. The scientific psychological literature is abundant and very clear on this.

HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL

Please don’t use the Bible as an excuse or an advocate spanking. Obviously, you take “spare the rod and spoil the child” seriously and fear that if you didn't spank, you would have committed the sin of losing control of your child. I've found time and time again, people easily misunderstanding the concept of the rod. The aforementioned rod verses – what (I think) they really mean. The following are the biblical verses which have caused the most significant confusion:

“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.” (Prov. 22:15)
“He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.” (Prov. 13:24)
“Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.” (Prov. 23:13-14)
“The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother.” (Prov. 29:15)

Yes, at first glance, these verses may sound pro-spanking. But you might consider a different interpretation of these teachings. “Rod” (shebet) means different things in different parts of the Bible. The Hebrew dictionary gives this word various meanings: a stick (for punishment, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.). While the rod could be used for hitting, it was more frequently used for guiding wandering sheep. Shepherds didn’t use the rod to beat their sheep – and children are certainly more valuable than sheep. As shepherd-author Philip Keller teaches so well in A Shepherd Looks At Psalm 23, the shepherd’s rod was used to fight off prey, and the staff was used to gently guide sheep along the right path. (“Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.” – Psalm 23:4).

Jewish families, who carefully follow dietary and lifestyle guidelines in the Scripture, do not practice “rod correction” with their children because they do not follow that interpretation of the text. The book of Proverbs is one of poetry. Logically, the writer would have used a well-known tool to form an image of authority. I believe that this is the point that God makes about the rod in the Bible – parents take charge of your children. When you re-read the “rod verses,” use the concept of parental authority when you come to the word “rod,” rather than the idea of beating or spanking. It rings true in every instance. While Christians and Jews believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, it is also a historical text that has been interpreted in many ways over the centuries, sometimes incorrectly in order to support the beliefs of the times.

These “rod” verses have been burdened with interpretations about corporal punishment that support human ideas. Other parts of the Bible, especially the New Testament, suggest that respect, authority, and tenderness should be the prevailing attitudes toward children among people of faith. In the New Testament, Christ modified the traditional eye-for-an-eye system of justice with His turn-the-other-cheek approach. Christ preached gentleness, love, and understanding, and seemed against any harsh use of the rod, as stated by Paul in 1 Cor. 4:21: “Shall I come to you with the whip (rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?” Paul went on to teach fathers about the importance of not provoking anger in their children (which is what spanking usually does): “Fathers, do not exasperate your children” (Eph. 6:4), and “Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will be discouraged” (Col. 3:21).

In my opinion, nowhere in the Bible does it say you must spank your child to be a godly parent. SPARE THE ROD! There are parents who should not spank and children who should not be spanked.

Are there factors in your history, your temperament, or your relationship with your child that put you at risk for abusing your child?
Are there characteristics in your child that make spanking unwise?
Were you abused as a child?
Do you lose control of yourself easily?
Did you spank more, with fewer results?
Did you spank harder?
Did spanking not work?
Did you have a high-need child?
A strong-willed child?
Were your children ultrasensitive?
Was your relationship with your children already distant?
Were there situations that made you angry, such as financial or marital difficulties or a recent job loss? Are there factors that are lowering your own self-confidence?

If the answer to any of these queries were yes, you would be wise to develop a no-spanking mindset in your home and do your best to come up with noncorporal alternatives. If you find you are unable to do this on your own, talk with someone who can help you.

Non Violent Regards,

Jon

[jimwalton]

> I think children should NOT be smacked. The scientific psychological literature is abundant and very clear on this.

I know what the supposed "pros" say. I disagree with them.

> HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL

This is a strange comment since the Bible speaks repeatedly about the potential value of corporeal punishment.

> Please don’t use the Bible as an excuse or an advocate spanking.

I don't use the Bible as an excuse or an advocate. I spanked my kids because it's one of many useful disciplinary tools.

> Obviously, you take “spare the rod and spoil the child” seriously and fear that if you didn't spank, you would have committed the sin of losing control of your child.

No, this is not true. That's not why I spanked, nor why I would refrain from spanking. Your accusation here is off-base and not true of me.

> rod

Your linguistic analysis of "rod" has some truth to it, but rods were also used on certain animals more than just touching or guiding them. We all know about an equestrian's crop.

> In the New Testament, Christ modified the traditional eye-for-an-eye system of justice with His turn-the-other-cheek approach.

This is untrue also. When Christ spoke of "turn the other cheek," he was addressing the issue of personal vengeance or retribution. His words have nothing to do with parenting or discipline.

> In my opinion, nowhere in the Bible does it say you must spank your child to be a godly parent.

I agree. I readily admitted that the Bible doesn't require spanking, but it doesn't forbid it, either. Spanking, done properly, is an effective disciplinary tool.

> Were you abused as a child?

No.

> Do you lose control of yourself easily?

No.

> Did you spank more, with fewer results?

No.

> Did you spank harder?

No.

> Did spanking not work?

Spanking worked.

>Did you have a high-need child? A strong-willed child?

Not particularly.

> Were your children ultrasensitive?

No.

> Was your relationship with your children already distant?

Not at all.

> Were there situations that made you angry, such as financial or marital difficulties or a recent job loss? Are there factors that are lowering your own self-confidence?

No. What website are you copying these textual analyses and psychological questions from?

> Non-violent regards...

I'm a non-violent person, too. Glad to be in conversation with you.