Board index Paul the Apostle

Paul is such an important figure in Christianity. There are many questions about his life and writings and his place in Christian theology.

Christians got everything from Paul

Postby Tom Adams » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:10 pm

They got everything from Paul. Except for "Jesus of Nazareth."

The letters of Paul provide all the essential Christian doctrines, minus any information about a man in Galilee, "Jesus of Nazareth." These doctrines include:

  • the coming "day of the Lord," i.e. the end of the world (1 Thessalonians, etc.)
  • the saving death and resurrection of "the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 15)
  • baptism into Christ's death (Romans 6:3)
  • the Lord's Supper celebrating Christ's death (1 Cor 11:23)
  • "the kingdom of God" (eg, 1 Cor 4:20)
  • love thy neighbor to fulfill the whole law (Rom 13:9)
  • the names Cephas/Simon/Peter, James, and John as other apostles of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1 & 2)

The New Testament itself gives evidence that Paul created a religion based on his own private visions (Gal 1: 12, 1 Cor 9 & 15, 2 Cor 12) of a divine figure that he called "the Lord Jesus Christ." From the little that Paul says about "Jesus," it's not even clear that Jesus is a person distinct from Paul himself (Gal 1:16, "in me"; Gal 3:1; Gal 6:17). For Paul, Jesus is no pretender to the throne of David, crucified in Jerusalem as "king of the Jews," but an altogether different type of "Christ": a divine presence within. Hence all his talk about being "in Christ."

After Paul died, and over many many years, the churches he founded came up with the story of a remembered historical man, "Jesus of Nazareth." A story told in 4 different ways, all linked to one another, all confirming Paul's Christianity in its essentials. "The Greatest Story Ever Told."
Tom Adams
 

Re: Christians got everything from Paul

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:47 pm

I agree with a few of your points (like, "The letters of Paul provide all the essential Christian doctrines") but disagree radically with your premise. Obviously Paul's letters were written first, so you seem to be claiming that the Gospel writers fabricated the material tapping off of Paul's preaching/teaching/writing.

I think that falls apart because of the numerous creeds that Paul includes in his writings, such as...
- 1 Cor. 15.3-5: Jesus died for our sins, was buried, rose again.
- 1 Tim. 3.16: Jesus appeared in history in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit (presumably His baptism), was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up into glory (Acts 1.1-11)

These creeds seem to have been in circulation long before Paul wrote. The one from 1 Corinthians is said to be from 3-5 years after Jesus's death.

In addition, there is evidence that Mark got his passion narrative from an earlier source that was written before AD 37, just handful of years after Jesus's resurrection.

Baptism was preached by Peter at Pentecost (Acts 2.38) in the same year Jesus died, a mere month and a half later.

The Lord's Supper was practiced in Acts 2.42 also in the same year Jesus died.

"Love your neighbor to fulfill the whole law" was even a common teaching among Jews in the first century. "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary." We don't have to perceive this as invented by Paul and attributed falsely to Jesus.

What I'm saying is that there is evidence that these beliefs were believed and circulated long before Paul was preaching or writing, so I think those weigh against your conclusion.

> The New Testament itself gives evidence that Paul created a religion based on his own private visions (Gal 1: 12, 1 Cor 9 & 15, 2 Cor 12) of a divine figure that he called "the Lord Jesus Christ."

This is false because there is no "evidence" he created a religion based on his private vision. Instead, what Paul said is that what He preached is true because it's from God—he received it in a divine manner. Galatians 2 then verifies that he checked in Jerusalem what he had been preaching with what the apostles had been preaching all along and found that there was no difference (Gal. 2.7-8). Paul was not "inventing" anything.

> From the little that Paul says about "Jesus," it's not even clear that Jesus is a person distinct from Paul himself (Gal 1:16, "in me"; Gal 3:1; Gal 6:17).

This is false. By "in me" (Gal. 1.16), Paul is emphasizing his inward experience of salvation. He experienced a revelation of Jesus on the road to Damascus. You can't justifiably take it to mean that Paul is claiming oneness with Jesus.

Gal. 3.1: “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified." What does this have to do with Paul claiming Jesus and he were the same?? Paul is saying that Christ's crucifixion is public knowledge. They all knew it had happened under Roman rule in Palestine. And Paul acts out that same crucifixion in front of them (Gal. 2.20).

Gal. 6.1: "...for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus." Paul has been flogged, as Jesus was. He has suffered with the sufferings of Christ (Phil. 3.10).

> For Paul, Jesus is no pretender to the throne of David, crucified in Jerusalem as "king of the Jews," but an altogether different type of "Christ": a divine presence within.

I disagree. Paul mentions the crucifixion of Christ 10 times. The Cross is central to Paul's preaching. But Christ is also a divine presence within.

> After Paul died, and over many many years, the churches he founded came up with the story of a remembered historical man, "Jesus of Nazareth." A story told in 4 different ways, all linked to one another, all confirming Paul's Christianity in its essentials. "The Greatest Story Ever Told."

Based on the evidence I've presented, I consider this a false conclusion.
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Re: Christians got everything from Paul

Postby Tom Adams » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:21 pm

Thanks for your reply.

> These creeds seem to have been in circulation long before Paul wrote. The one from 1 Corinthians is said to be from 3-5 years after Jesus's death.

> In addition, there is evidence that Mark got his passion narrative from an earlier source that was written before AD 37, just handful of years after Jesus's resurrection.

What evidence would that be? Biblical scholars talk all the time about what "seems to be happening" behind the biblical text, and it drives me nuts.

As for the creeds, which all come through Paul or his later communities, you have to at least address the fact that Paul admits to having revelations and visions (Gal 1:12, 2 Cor 12), and that according to him they are one of only two sources for his teaching, the other being the scriptures.

Acts of the Apostles is not a credible historical narrative. It's a 2nd century attempt at harmonizing Paul with James and Cephas and "the twelve."
Tom Adams
 

Re: Christians got everything from Paul

Postby jimwalton » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:55 pm

> What evidence would that be?

1 Cor. 15.3-5 is regarded by New Testament scholars of every stripe, from the minimalist and liberal Jesus Seminar to the conservative maximalist evangelicals, as being both authentic and early (no more than 2-5 years after Jesus's crucifixion. There is more agreement on this text than almost any other text. The vocabulary and structure are not Paul's. If you've looked into it at all, you wouldn't be asking this question.

As far as 1 Tim. 3.16, it is clearly some kind of creed, hymn, or poem from a source other than Paul (again, vocabulary and style).

> As for the creeds, which all come through Paul or his later communities

How else would you expect a creed to come to us except someone writing it down later?

> you have to at least address the fact that Paul admits to having revelations and visions (Gal 1:12, 2 Cor 12

Of course. No debate here.

> and that according to him they are one of only two sources for his teaching, the other being the scriptures.

Paul says that the visions are the source of his understanding of the gospel as a gospel of grace through faith meant for all the world, not just for Jews, and that one didn't have to be a Jew first to become a Christian second. He is NOT claiming those visions are the only two sources for ALL his teaching.

> Acts of the Apostles is not a credible historical narrative.

You'll need to substantiate this claim and show me where all its "errors" are. Acts is an astoundingly accurate historical narrative. Everything about it that is corroboratable is spot on.
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Re: Christians got everything from Paul

Postby Tom Adams » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:35 pm

> Acts of the Apostles is not a credible historical narrative.

> You'll need to substantiate this claim and show me where all its "errors" are. Acts is an astoundingly accurate historical narrative. Everything about it that is corroboratable is spot on.

Right. Like when Paul tells us he didn’t consult with flesh and blood after God revealed the son in him, but he went off to Arabia (Galatians 1), and then Luke just makes up a different story. Sorry, Paul, what you actually did was go to Damascus and get healed and baptized by Ananias. You got the spirit from the Jerusalem disciples, not directly from God. This is just one a thousand absurdities or fabrications in Luke. Ferdinand Christian Baur exposed them all in gruesome detail 2 centuries ago, and Christian “Bible scholars” are still pretending that Acts is “astoundingly accurate historical narrative.” What a joke.
Tom Adams
 

Re: Christians got everything from Paul

Postby jimwalton » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:59 pm

> Like when Paul tells us he didn’t consult with flesh and blood after God revealed the son in him, but he went off to Arabia (Galatians 1), and then Luke just makes up a different story.

????? Where did Luke make up a different story, and how is Luke's erroneous? You haven't given me enough to go on here, and especially not to substantiate your claim. Try again.

> Sorry, Paul, what you actually did was go to Damascus and get healed and baptized by Ananias.

You're confusing me. You have something in your head that's not coming out in your post. Acts 9 says that Paul was on the way to Damascus when he had a vision, went to Ananias and was healed and baptized (Acts 9.18). Then we lose the thread of Paul's story for a while (Acts 10-12). Luke then picks up the story about 14 years later in Acts 13.

I don't get it. So how is this proving to me that "Acts" is not a credible historical narrative?

> This is just one a thousand absurdities or fabrications in Luke.

I'm not aware of any that have been proved to be false. You need to do better than this.

I'd love to talk about it with you, but you have to be more precise and more clear.

> Ferdinand Christian Baur exposed them all in gruesome detail 2 centuries ago, and Christian “Bible scholars” are still pretending that Acts is “astoundingly accurate historical narrative.” What a joke.

I'm not familiar with this author, but I'll mention one thing: There have been hundreds of thousands of archaeological discoveries in the past two centuries. An awful lot of learning has taken place. We know worlds more than we knew then, and those discoveries have corroborated Luke's account in Acts in every way. Nothing has been discovered to discredit Luke, and much has been discovered to authenticate him. I'm glad to talk about this more with you.


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