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[Zorro]

I'm going to assert that I am a Christian by at least one definition, and I think that this definition is significant.

Setup

Let's first dispense with what Christianity is not. There are many sects of Christianity from the ancient to the very recent. Most Christians, I think, acknowledge that most of these are Christian in a general sense, even if they feel that some of those Christians are "doing it wrong". So I'm not going to accept that Christianity is defined by Catholic dogma or the belief that the Book of Mormon was delivered by an Angel or any other sectarian point of disagreement between Christians.

The question then becomes: what is Christianity in a positive sense? Here's one definition: Follows the teachings of Jesus

This would include Christian Atheists, Jews for Jesus, etc. which many Christians would not consider Christian. So let's add in two more criteria:

• Does not subscribe to the dogma of another faith
• Believes in God

Now, your average modern Christian is going to require the Nicene Creed as well, but this is problematic, since there are important Christians prior to the adoption of the Nicene Creed who did not subscribe to it for one reason or another. Origen, for example, certainly would not have been on the side of the consensus at the Council of Nicaea had he lived that long, and yet I'm aware of very few Christians who would assert that he was not a Christian, so much as he was wrong about some elements of the faith (though there are other Christians who would agree with Origen, further making my point).

It's all about me

Okay, so let me lay out my own cards, here:

• I believe in God
• I'm specifically a non-dogmatic panentheist, so I have no other dogma that I subscribe to
• I respect the teachings of Jesus

But I would say that I fail to live up to those ideals about as much as most Christians that I know

So... I assert that I am a Christian. What say you?

NOTE: This is mostly using me as a proxy. The real reason that I'm not a Christian is that I don't self-identify as one, but I wanted to get at the width and grayness of the line between Christian and non-Christian in this debate.

[jimwalton]

I would say you are not a Christian, and here are my reasons.

Christianity is not just a matter of believing in God and respecting the teachings of Jesus. In my thoughts about the core of Christianity, I came up with a list of 13 things that ALL true Christians subscribe to:

1. God exists.
2. God is holy. God’s holiness is not a separate attribute but the result of the sum total of all of his attributes—including but not limited to his sovereignty, omniscience, love, and righteousness.
3. Jesus is God (Jn. 10.30).
4. Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried and rose again, according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15.3-4).
5. There is salvation only in Jesus Christ (Acts 4.12).
6. We have one objective: salvation (both for ourselves and others).
7. A core of objective moral principles based on the nature and character of God.
8. The powerful example of Christ that can change human behavior for the better.
9. The Bible is God’s revelation of Himself.
10. Baptism (of some kind, according to various traditions). Heb. 6.2.
11. The laying on of hands (Heb. 6.2).
12. The future physical resurrection of the dead (Heb. 6.2).
13. Eternal judgment (of some kind, according to various interpretations of Scripture). Heb. 6.2.

In addition, however, I recently spent some time reading all 4 Gospels and pulling out what Jesus says about how to be saved, how to be a true Christian, how to assure your eternity will be with Him. I came up with a list of about 20 things, which I summarize as: Repent of your sins and align yourself with Jesus. Come to Jesus, believe in Jesus and follow him—put his words into practice, love him, allegiance. Follow him, identify with him, and learn from him.

As I read your post, these things are not what you have described of yourself. All you have is (1) believe in God, and (2) respect the teachings of Jesus. That isn't it.

[Bluefin]

According to whom, needs to be defined better. According to mankind and our dictionaries', sure being a follower of Jesus and his teachings is enough.. but to be considered a Christian in the eyes of God and worthy of redemption, is a different matter. According to the words of Jesus himself, you must love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself. He said, that from these first 2 commandments, the most important of the commandments, that all the others come from. So I would safely assume that to be a Christian in the eyes of God, you have to be a practicer of what he teaches. It's not complicated, but it does require practice as being a good person is always the easiest thing in the world to do. It's usually much easier to give in to fear and anger.

[jimwalton]

> According to whom, needs to be defined better.

I thought I was clear:

• "I would say..."
• "In my thoughts..."
• "I came up with a list..."
• "I recently spent some time reading all 4 Gospels and pulling out what Jesus says..."

> According to the words of Jesus himself, you must love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself. He said, that from these first 2 commandments, the most important of the commandments, that all the others come from.

This is correct, but it's a summary statement from Jesus in response to a question, "What is the most important commandment?" But Jesus also taught...

• If you want to be part of the kingdom of God, you must repent and believe. Sin is presented as the antithesis of Jesus and it must be repented from. (Not just obey 2 commands)
• That Jesus Himself is the access point, and Jesus is calling sinners to himself (not just obey 2 commands)
• That one must be born of the Spirit
• He is looking for faith.
• Obey the Law and keep the commandments (here's where the two commands are applicable).
• Do God's will
• Put the words of Jesus into practice
• Align yourself with Jesus, identify with him, and follow Him
• Love God
• Love Jesus
• Lose your life (deny self) for Jesus's sake
• good works (love of neighbor)
• Humility
• Live by the truth; come into the light, both of which are Jesus Himself
• Drink the "living water" that Jesus gives

It's far more than being a good person.

[Zorro]

So someone who interprets those verses differently from you is not a Christian. That seems problematic for the reasons that I cited in the original post.

> That isn't it.

That isn't ... what? Christianity or your sect of Christianity? Also, you brought up being saved, and I don't agree that desiring being saved is necessary to be a Christian. Yes, it seems like an obvious end-goal, given the dogma, but does one have to accept the dogma?

Are Christian Universalists Christians?

[jimwalton]

> So someone who interprets those verses differently from you is not a Christian.

Those are just some verses. They are repeated through all of Scripture and form the core of what the Bible is teaching. They can't be ignored without changing the meaning of the Bible, Jesus's teachings, and Christianity. And while some of them are subject to interpretation (such as final judgment), the Bible is unequivocal about some kind of final judgment.

> Christianity or your sect of Christianity?

Christianity itself. These are core biblical teachings, apart from which one has deserted Christianity itself.

> Also, you brought up being saved, and I don't agree that desiring being saved is necessary to be a Christian.

Then you need to show that from Scripture. Jesus specifically said He came to save the lost (Luke 15; Luke 19.10), to save sinners (Mt. 1.21; 9.2, 13; 26.28; Luke 5.32, et al).

It is a theme that is picked up by Peter (Acts 2.21; 4.12) Paul and repeated many times (Acts 16.31; Rom. 5.9-10, et al.)

If you want to contend that it's just part of a sect and not a central theme to Christianity, then you need to give evidence of that. If you "don't agree that desiring being saved is necessary to be a Christian," show me the truth of that in the Bible. That's what it all comes down to. You are not free to ignore the clear teaching of the Bible, make up your own "teaching of the Bible," and claim you're conforming to the teachings of the Bible and can rightly consider yourself a Christian.

> Yes, it seems like an obvious end-goal, given the dogma, but does one have to accept the dogma?

If that's the clear and inviolable teaching of the Bible, of Jesus, and of Paul, yes, one has to accept the dogma. That's what Christianity is, and necessarily so.

> Are Christian Universalists Christians?

It depends how they define their universalism. If in their system there is no justice and no judgment, then that's not Scriptural and separates them from subscribing to the teachings of the Bible.

[Roaming]

Is it important to recognize the crucifixion and resurrection? In your summary of 20 things, you didn't list it. And you would agree that Jesus's followers were christians before the crucifixion, no?

[jimwalton]

It was in my list of 13 things, item #4: "Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried and rose again, according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15.3-4)."

[Ukash]

> So someone who follow's God's word, i.e., worships and loves God and obeys Him, but doesn't even believe in God is still a Christian? That doesn't even make sense.

What counts as worshipping, loving, and obeying God? It is said that a man may find God without ever encountering the Bible, and that the Word has been with God since creation. To love is to know God, to seek truth is to seek God, how is that limited to specifically following the Bible? Why does the Bible itself say that those who have not heard have a general revelation of God? Should I assume this revelation would be exactly the same as the experience of someone who has been exposed to the word in a much more direct way? Point is, it is easy to show how someone professing another creed could still in fact be following God.
​
> So in your mind Christianity is nothing more than being a good person? That's not what the Bible teaches.

No, I said that was the essentials, and it is. I don't think this is even a question, Love is specifically pointed out over and over again: God is love, love thy neighbor, love God, etc. Similarly, Jesus is the embodiment of truth, and that too is described multiple times in the text and symbolically. Same for faith and hope. There is more to the teaching of the Bible, but I was giving a concise, general answer.

[jimwalton]

> What counts as worshipping, loving, and obeying God?

Worship is recognizing and rehearsing all of who God is, and giving all of myself to Him. Love is a relationship of sacrifice and devotion. Obedience is compliance with the will of God.

> It is said that a man may find God without ever encountering the Bible, and that the Word has been with God since creation.

The Bible says that the attributes of God can be seen in creation (Rom. 1.20), Paul doesn't claim that general revelation (seeing God in nature) is sufficient to save anyone. He does imply, however, that general revelation is sufficient to condemn. The created universe bears witness to the power and divine nature of the Creator, and those who say otherwise are accountable for their rejection of the creation’s witness to the Creator.

> To love is to know God, to seek truth is to seek God, how is that limited to specifically following the Bible?

Because truth is necessarily narrow. Of all the numbers, 2 + 2 only equals 4. Of all the theories about what happened to Amelia Earhart or who shot JFK, we can have all the theories we want, but after the truth is discovered, only that will be true. It is impossible that all the religions of the world are true since they contradict each other. A cannot equal non-A. Now, logically speaking, possibly none of them are true, but it's impossible that more than one are true. If there really and truthfully is a God, then there is truth about Him that must be followed, and all our theories go in the trash except the one(s) that is true. At best, only one religion can be true.

Besides, it is not true that to love is to know God. Humans can exercise and experience love outside of a knowledge of God.

And while it is true that to seek truth is ultimately and fundamentally to seek God, only with special revelation can such seeking be directed to spiritual truth.

> Why does the Bible itself say that those who have not heard have a general revelation of God

It's because God uses many means to reveal Himself to people. But general revelation only tells us of the logic of a God, it doesn't reveal all of Himself to us that is necessary for salvation.

> Point is, it is easy to show how someone professing another creed could still in fact be following God.

There are core truths in the Bible that cannot be ignored. We are not free to create our own version of Christianity; the Bible tells us what Christianity means, and that becomes our authority.

> No, I said that was the essentials, and it is.

This is not what the Bible teaches. The essentials in the Bible are:

• If you want to be part of the kingdom of God, you must repent and believe. Sin is presented as the antithesis of Jesus and it must be repented from. (Not just be a good person)
• That Jesus Himself is the access point, and Jesus is calling sinners to himself (not just be a good person)
• That one must be born of the Spirit, not just be a good person
• He is looking for faith, not just goodness.
• Obey the Law and keep the commandments (here's where being a good person is partially applicable).
• Do God's will (includes more that being a good person).
• Put the words of Jesus into practice (includes more that being a good person).
• Align yourself with Jesus, identify with him, and follow Him (includes more that being a good person).
• Love God
• Love Jesus
• Lose your life (deny self) for Jesus's sake
• good works (love of neighbor)
• Humility
• Live by the truth; come into the light, both of which are Jesus Himself
• Drink the "living water" that Jesus gives

It's far more than being a good person. We must teach ALL of what the Bible teaches, not just love (as important as that is). As a matter of fact, Jesus rebuked the "goodness" of the Pharisees as being inadequate.