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[Animosity]

What is the point of our compulsory, forced existence(forced as in not having a choice being born/being here) if the majority of our natural motives, behaviors, desires & modes of living will ultimately have us be thrown in hell to be tormented savagely forever?

More precisely, if we're born to just to die physically and spiritually and it's only a matter of time before we get sent to hell for "walking the broad, wide path of destruction" that happens to ubiquitously dominate the average consciousness of man, then what's the point at all in our existence if the majority of us are going to eternally suffer in unconscionable ways when we do die?

I understand that there was a way made out of this inevitable and inescapable fate through Christ, but in my view I feel like the representative majority of our existence is a very long cruel & joke. We have no say whatsoever whether or not we will take up the multi-generational burden and satanic curse of sin & it's possessive dominion over our lives, consciousness & souls. And we definitely don't have a choice at all in being held to a moral, ethical and spiritually legal standard that for one, we never asked to be forced into account for, didn't consent to, and never had an option with to begin with.

A law & standard in which we are judged against and in all probable likelihood will fail against & face condemnation for in an existence we had no say in participating in.

So I ask what is the point of our existence as a creation if it's mostly grueling struggle, suffering, pain, deception to an end of infinitely far greater suffering after we die? Why must every person be subject to wrath & eternal destruction in a existence we all never asked for in the first place? And why does it seem like the only surefire way out is even more struggle, repentant compliance, self sacrifice and personal tribulation in a spiritual walk that is geared virtually 90° against ourselves?

So I come to you to ask: what's the point of being here if you can't live your own life on your own terms without there being some kind of eternally violent and unimaginably terrorizing fate at the end of it?

[jimwalton]

> The point of our(mostly doomed) existence?

Already I'm sensing some inner suffering over this along with confusion about it. I'll start off by saying I'm sorry you feel so burdened and angry. I'll try to answer your questions and we can talk.

> (forced as in not having a choice being born/being here)

To me it seems weird that you seem to think that beings who don't exist should get to have a say in whether to come into existence or not. I just don't get where that's even possible. But you're upset that you, before you existed, didn't get input into your own existence. But we'll keep going here.

> What is the point of our compulsory, forced existence

At least some of the point of life is to experience love, friends, beauty, fun, truth, learning, adventure, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Despite the agonies of life, there is a lot of positive, also.

> ...will ultimately have us be thrown in hell to be tormented savagely forever?

It's God's desire that you join His family and experience forgiveness, healing, love, wholeness, freedom, and truth. That's what He invites all people into a relationship with Him for. The Bible specifically says that hell was designed for Satan and his angels, not for humans at all. But if you reject God, then the only alternative to being with God is being separated from Him. And, by the way, hell isn't savage torment, which makes it sound like God is getting some kind of perverse delight out of it. It's punishment that appropriate to the offense, which I think everyone would agree is a principle of justice that we all affirm.

> More precisely, if we're born to just to die physically and spiritually

It's more accurate to say that we're born so that we can come into relationship with God. But if you don't choose to do that, then that's not God's fault. You have plenty of opportunities to come to Him, and this conversation is even one of them.

> I understand that there was a way made out of this inevitable and inescapable fate through Christ

C.S. Lewis wrote (and I think he makes a valid point):

You object to the doctrine of hell. What are you asking God to do? To wipe out past sins at all costs and to give anyone who wants it a fresh start, smoothing difficulties and offering help? But He has DONE that. That's what his death and resurrection were all about. OK, then, are you asking God to forgive you? It's a RELATIONSHIP. He will forgive anyone who wants it, and cannot forgive those who choose not to be forgiven. To leave you alone then? Well, I'm afraid that's what hell is.

If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If there is a way that must be found by the will, and by love, then it must be possible to refuse it. If the happiness of a person is honestly the result of self-surrender, then no one can make that decision except himself, and he may refuse. I would love to say everyone will be saved. But then I'd have to ask, "Will they be saved against their will, or with it?" If I say "against their will," I'm in the middle of a contradiction; how can self-surrender and love be involuntary? But if the answer is "With their will," it begs the question: "What if they will not give in?"

> but in my view I feel like the representative majority of our existence is a very long cruel & joke.

Life without Christ can certainly feel like that, based on the testimonies of millions of people.

> We have no say whatsoever whether or not we will take up the multi-generational burden and satanic curse of sin & it's possessive dominion over our lives, consciousness & souls.

That's exactly the point: We DO have a say. At any time that can be taken away. Forgiven and removed. It's like parents who would renounce their American citizenship and move to, say, France. So their children, through no fault of their own, are not Americans but French citizens. But it's true (for the sake of this hypothetical analogy) that any time any of those children can choose to move back to the US and become American citizens, if that's what they want to do. Their parents' decision doesn't rule their lives.

So also, Adam & Eve's decision transferred your "citizenship" away from God, and you were born separated from Him. But the door is always open: You can come back ANY TIME you want. Adam & Eve's decision doesn't rule your life; YOU rule your life.

> So I come to you to ask: what's the point of being here if you can't live your own life on your own terms without there being some kind of eternally violent and unimaginably terrorizing fate at the end of it?

Because everything has consequences. It's impossible that there not be any consequences. There are consequences in science, in knowledge, in learning, in communication, and in relationships. There's no other choice. If you want to live life on your own terms, go ahead, but there are consequences. We live in a real world where we don't just make up consequences willy-nilly. We live in reality. And IF there's a God, then there are truly consequences for both accepting or rejecting that truth. Otherwise all of life is just an illusion, and a meaningless one at that—but that's not reality.

[Animosity]

> It's punishment that appropriate to the offense, which I think everyone would agree is a principle of justice that we all affirm

If you were a judge with someone's life in your hands, would you ever think: this person did this this and this. I should light them on fire and make sure that they never stop burning for the rest of eternity and have them screaming, wailing, burning their flesh off their bones in absolute hopeless horrific terror as they watch their fellow man/woman suffer in the most horrific ways unimaginable forever. That should teach them a lesson. Is that ever a punishment appropriate for any offense?

Because if you listen to the people who've come back from hell, they will tell you they've witnessed similar things and even far worse. Can you tell me what a straight face that this is a place that is appropriate for any punishment, considering how we ourselves don't even go to such barbaric lengths to punish murderers and drug dealers? Is that Justice, and if it is to what length does Justice extend if this is the end result & methodology?

[jimwalton]

If you were a judge with someone's life in your hands, would you ever think: this person did this this and this. I should light them on fire and make sure that they never stop burning for the rest of eternity and have them screaming, wailing, burning their flesh off their bones in absolute hopeless horrific terror as they watch their fellow man/woman suffer in the most horrific ways unimaginable forever. That should teach them a lesson. Is that ever a punishment appropriate for any offense?

You very much misunderstand hell. Hell is not literal fire any more than heaven is playing harps on clouds. The fire is figurative, as are the golden streets. The teaching of Scripture is that God will be certain the punishment will perfectly fit the crime, whatever form that takes and whatever duration it persists. And that's a principle of justice I can readily endorse as being what justice is truly all about.

> Because if you listen to the people who've come back from hell, they will tell you they've witnessed similar things and even far worse.

This sentence confuses me. Who has come back from hell and reported about it?

> Can you tell me what a straight face that this is a place that is appropriate for any punishment, considering how we ourselves don't even go to such barbaric lengths to punish murderers and drug dealers? Is that Justice, and if it is to what length does Justice extend if this is the end result & methodology?

I can guarantee you that the whole point is that God will be perfectly fair, and that He won't do anything that is unfair, and on that we can have confidence. Whatever its duration and whatever its nature, it will be fair. I don't fault God for being a fair judge.

[Animosity]

I make of it that we're cursed & postmarked for "eternal destruction" as a creation and most of us will fail the impossibly high and immutable standards of God, even if he gave us a chance. And for failing those standards we're going to be put in a place where no trace of good exists since we've been proven to be evil in some technical way and are eligible for punishment for it, with an eternal judgement by an eternal being.

Some will make it, a whole lot won't and will suffer this insane fate in a conscious neverending nightmare. All for non compliance to a plan given to us in a life we couldn't have any choice with in the first place.

You're put here with zero(eternal) safety from your own autonomy. You own absolutely nothing about your life in the end, you're either a slave to the whims & manipulations of the enemy exploiting your ego & desires or a benevolent God who wants to keep you, at the expense of your own personal directive/free will.

Freedom is an illusion and if you want to exercise it in your own way you'll be punished for it if it's not "God's way". It's his way or eternal torment,(which hints little to an actual choice without threat of violent retribution) that's what I get from this life & grand message of the gospel. A life of servitude no matter what or who it is.

If you want your independence you're allegiant to evil whether you consent to it or not. Your fate is sealed horrifically if you want your own life, your own way.

That's what I make of it.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope you don't mind if I respond to a few of them.

> most of us will fail the impossibly high and immutable standards of God, even if he gave us a chance.

I'm so glad to tell you how incorrect this is. The whole point of the Bible is that we are saved by God's grace. We don't have to rise to impossibly high and immutable standards. Instead, we have to come to God in humble repentance, and voila, we can receive the free gift of salvation. Nothing is asked of us for salvation except repentance and a willingness to put our lives in the hands of God. That's the good news.

> And for failing those standards

Not for failing the standards, but failure to respond to the invitation. We're invited to join the party, so to speak, but if we refuse to come, that's on us.

> since we've been proven to be evil in some technical way

This is incorrect, too. It's not that we've been proven to be evil, but that we choose to retain our separation. I'm glad we've had a chance to have this conversation to straighten out these misunderstandings of Christian teaching.

> All for non compliance to a plan given to us in a life we couldn't have any choice with in the first place.

This is incorrect, too. The whole point is that in this life we ALWAYS have a choice, we CONTINUALLY have a choice. You can come to Christ even now. The door is open and His invitation is real.

> You own absolutely nothing about your life in the end

?? Our lives are ours to do with as we choose.

> you're either a slave to the whims & manipulations of the enemy exploiting your ego & desires

This is incorrect, also. We are not slaves to the enemy, but instead functionaries of our own will and desires. The desire to sin comes not from Satan but rather from your own heart. And God says He will gladly change your heart if you just turn it over to Him.

> Freedom is an illusion

This is possibly true, depending what you mean by it. We always serve something, whether our own desires, peer pressure, the drive for money or comfort or whatever, by pride, by greed, by religion, etc. Freedom is technically the ability to choose whom or what we will serve, because you gotta serve somebody.

> you'll be punished for it if it's not "God's way".

"God's way" is the way of truth and love. As a Christian, it's hard for me to understand why everyone wouldn't want that, but it turns out to be the case that many don't. (shrugging shoulders)

> Your fate is sealed horrifically if you want your own life, your own way.

I don't think this is accurate. In my case, my choice—my "own way"—is to choose truth and love, which is "God's way." I have found it to be remarkably satisfying, meaningful, and fulfilling, apparently in contrast to your feelings about yourself of despair and anger about a "doomed existence." I've chosen my own way, and I have to assume you are actively choosing yours.

> That's what I make of it.

Thank you so much for sharing your feelings. I hope you're not put off by my corrections and my sharing a little from my life. I'd be glad to talk more.