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[Flushed]

Why can't God just stop people from wanting to commit crime/tragedites like hurricanes in general?

I doubt preventing an act, stops the free will of the person wishing to commit that act and God can easily create a world where we can live happily with zero chances of tragedy happening right?

For evil to profit or work it needs people to do nothing

People get angry when the police officers stands by and does nothing but yet God gets a pass to do nothing

Then again he did wipe out whole cites and then 99.99% of all loving things in a flood, so maybe it didn't allow suffering to happen back then? maybe he used to care but not anymore?

[jimwalton]

Take your thought to its logical conclusions. If you want God to stop people from wanting to commit crime and natural tragedies, you want Him to control thoughts and actions. You want Him to control, then, also, every aspect of nature. And where does this stop? Do you want Him to stop not only crime but also hate speech? Do you want Him to stop people hurting each other's feelings? Do you want Him to stop misunderstandings? If so, you want us to be robots, or the Stepford Wives, or something. That's not human. If not, where do the lines get drawn, because people are still going to get ticked at God for not stopping x, y, or z.

And if there is no chance of tragedy happening, you want God to stop gravity if someone slips—so they don't get hurt, or fall off a ledge. Where does this stop? If a building is poorly made, like the one in Miami about a year ago, does God just, like, hold it up, against all construction and science? Do you want him to stop all tragedy? If so, there is no such thing as science because nothing is predictable or regular. If not, where do the lines get drawn, because people are still going to get ticked at God for not stopping x, y, or z.

So is it true that "God can easily create a world where we can live happily with zero chances of tragedy happening"? If so, we cease to be human and there is there is no science and no reasoning.

It's not giving God a pass, it's examining the full import of what it is you are asking.

> Then again he did wipe out whole cites and then 99.99% of all loving things in a flood, so maybe it didn't allow suffering to happen back then?

The Flood was not global, but was restricted to the group of guilty people. And it was because those people were so violent and corrupt that there was only suffering. It makes sense that a reasoning, fair, and loving God would want to intervene to stop all the suffering.

> maybe he used to care but not anymore?

This is certainly not a warranted conclusion. Given what I've said, is it truly a reasonable expectation that God will stop all suffering?

[Hawaiian]

> If you want God to stop people from wanting to commit crime and natural tragedies, you want Him to control thoughts and actions.

But he already controls thoughts, doesn't he? For example, do you want to take razor blades and slice your eyeballs up? Do you want to ingest hot coals? Do you want to peel your own skin off with a pair of pliers every spring? I'm assuming you don't. You could still do it because you have free will, but you have no desire to do it.

It seems reasonable to think that if you were designed to not desire to take razor blades to your eyes, then you could just as easily be designed to not desire to kill another human for example.

[jimwalton]

No, God doesn't control thoughts. There is no notion, let alone teaching, or even an example in the Bible that God controls thoughts.

[Dude]

> So is it true that "God can easily create a world where we can live happily with zero chances of tragedy happening"? If so, we cease to be human and there is there is no science and no reasoning.

So there are tragedies in heaven?

[jimwalton]

Heaven is in a different category because (1) it's a spiritual-physical world, and (2) the only people who are there are those who have submitted their wills fully to God. My comment was made in the context of a physical world (life on Earth) where people have not used their free will to submit wholly to God. These factors change everything. The question at hand is why God doesn't stop crime and physical/natural tragedies like hurricanes. You can see instantly this is a different context.

[Dude]

So god could have just made heaven to begin with. No need to do the physical world.

[jimwalton]

Nope. Not possible. Heaven is for those who have made the choice to love God. You can't populate Heaven with people who are still rebellious and separated from God. The physical world with its trials and choices had to come first. There is no other way. It's like saying, "Well, can't we just have a president in a democracy without elections?" Um, no. The choice has to precede the term.
You can't have a place where free wills have been fully submitted to God unless you first give those free wills an opportunity to submit or not. And part of that world is one of dynamism rather than robots and staticism.

[Dude]

> Nope. Not possible.

You have to demonstrate that it's not logically possible.

> You can't have a place where free wills have been fully submitted to God unless you first give those free wills an opportunity to submit or not.

Sure you can. God knows, in advance, all free will choices that are made.

So he could choose to create only those people that will fully submit immediately upon being created in heaven.

[jimwalton]

> You have to demonstrate that it's not logically possible.

No problem.

P1: Heaven is only for people who have made a choice to love God and commit themselves to him.

P2: There must necessarily be a place and time to make that choice.

P3: A life before Heaven is necessary where choices are not only possible but also real.

C: Therefore it is not possible to start off with Heaven populated by the general populace, skipping the "life on Earth" stage.

> Sure you can. God knows, in advance, all free will choices that are made.

No, you can't. God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with free will. Knowledge is not causative. Free will, to be free will, is the necessarily causative mechanism where by free will choices are made, and they have no dependence on or submission to the omniscience of God.

> So he could choose to create only those people that will fully submit immediately upon being created in heaven.

No. Free will submission is a choice and can't be "created" into someone.