> You might have your timeline off here. The solstice celebrations happened before christ. Before the 1500s.

Oh my goodness. I have said no less than 4 times that solstice celebrations happened before Christ, but the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with them.

* On October 20, I wrote, "There is no hint from actual ancient records that [Christmas] was designed to coincide with the winter solstice. (That suggestion doesn't appear until the 12th century.) ... So we don't know when Jesus was born. But it's not likely that Christianity co-oped the winter solstice celebration and called it Christmas.
* On October 21st I wrote, "The Romans celebrated the winter solstice, but there's no evidence in the first several centuries of Christianity that Christmas was even celebrated, let alone that it was celebrated at the winter solstice. ... THEREFORE, I conclude that Christmas isn't a rebranded winter solstice celebration. Christianity did not co-opt the winter solstice celebration and call it Christmas, as you claim."
* On October 23, you said the winter solstice existed before Christ, and I agree. I said, "Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas. "
* On October 24, I reiterated that the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ, and that the celebration of Christmas had nothing to do with that.

Now you're arguing that my "timeline [is] off here. The solstice celebrations happened before Christ. Before the 1500s."

I KNOW they did. We've covered this ground. But the solstice celebrations have nothing to do with the recognition of Christmas or Christ's birth.

> Sure. But the twelve days also come from scandinavian countries.

So what? The "12 days of Christmas" has nothing to do with the Bible, early Christmas celebrations, or the birth of Jesus. It was a later addition that has nothing to do with original practices, sources, or even the winter solstice!

> If you can find me a culture that didn't celebrate solstice in late december, but then started celebrating xmas when that started, then I would agree with you that in those cultures, xmas was purely a christian thing.

Oh my goodness. All of the old cultures celebrated the solstice, but that has nothing to do with Christmas. The celebration of Christmas has no relation to the winter solstice. None. Zippo. Zilch. There is no connection.

> But everywhere else, solstice was celebrated, and christ stuff was added to it and it became what we know today as xmas.

This is untrue, as I have more-than-adequately shown. I have proven to you from historical records that the "Christ stuff" was NOT added to the solstice celebration. You can't just make stuff up.

> This is why there are twelve days, this is why there's yule logs, this is why there are xmas trees and xmas wreaths.

Oh my goodness. The 12 days, yule logs, trees, and wreaths came CENTURIES later. These things were added to the Christmas celebration in the mid-2nd millennium.

> Sure, maybe the trees and wreaths traditions came from solstice celebrations. And very possibly they were integrated into Christmas celebrations in the 1500s. I'm fine with that. But that's not an origins story for Christmas; it's a blending of two traditions many centuries later.

You might have your timeline off here. The solstice celebrations happened before christ. Before the 1500s.

> As far as we know, Christianity came to the Scandinavian countries in the 8th-12th centuries.

Sure. But the twelve days also come from scandinavian countries. But no matter what country, many of them were already celebrating solstice. Many of them, when they became more an more christian didn't stop celebrating solstice and start celebrating xmas. They incorporate their traditions.

If you can find me a culture that didn't celebrate solstice in late december, but then started celebrating xmas when that started, then I would agree with you that in those cultures, xmas was purely a christian thing. But everywhere else, solstice was celebrated, and christ stuff was added to it and it became what we know today as xmas. This is why there are twelve days, this is why there's yule logs, this is why there are xmas trees and xmas wreaths.

Sure, maybe the trees and wreaths traditions came from solstice celebrations. And very possible they were integrated into Christmas celebrations in the 1500s. I'm fine with that. But that's not an origins story for Christmas; it's a blending of two traditions many centuries later.

As far as we know, Christianity came to the Scandinavian countries in the 8th-12th centuries. It would have been some time after that that the tradition of the wreath got incorporated into Christmas celebrations. It's a blending of two traditions many centuries later. But that's not an origins story for Christmas.

> Well, good. Then you realize that wreaths and trees have nothing to do with your question about origins.

There's a huge disconnect here. You seem to be unable to connect facts with what we're talking about.

Trees and wreaths were used by solstice celebrations in Norway or something like that for example. That's where that "chrstmas" tradition came from.

If you're going to start out your response right off the bat with an untruth so blatant, there's really no need for me to read the rest of your response as it's likely more of the same. So, later dude.

> Origins is where it comes from and is exactly what we're talking about.

Well, good. Then you realize that wreaths and trees have nothing to do with your question about origins.

> And also, my family and the family i grew up in, in our modern day practice observes nothing religious. We don't do nativity stuff, nor do we praise any lord. Ours is a happy secular xmas.

Good. That's fine. What you practice has nothing to do with the origins of the holiday (how and why Christmas started).

> You've listed and acknowledged evidence that Christmas evolved from winter solstice, but you certainly haven't proved the opposite.

You need to go back and read my post. What I listed and acknowledged was exactly the opposite. Here's what I said (this will be the third time I've given this evidence:

1. The evidence is strong that Jesus was not born in December.
2. When the early church writers even mention Jesus's birth, which is rare, they mention it being at other times, not in December.
3. There's no evidence that Jesus's birth was recognized or celebrated in the first several centuries.
4. The Romans celebrated the winter solstice, but there's no evidence in the first several centuries of Christianity that Christmas was even celebrated, let alone that it was celebrated at the winter solstice.
5. The early Christians did everything possible to distance themselves from Roman practices and particularly Roman religion, so there was no using of a Roman festival to celebrate Christmas.
6. It's only about AD 350 or so that December 25 is mentioned as the birthday of Jesus, and there is no mention of a celebration let alone anything to do with the winter solstice.
7. The Eastern Church has never celebrated Christmas at the winter solstice.
8. What information we have from the Roman Catholic Church puts Christmas in December because they put the conception in March. The birth of Christ has nothing to do with the winter solstice.

> You seem to think Christians all came from one place

They did. They came from the ministry of Jesus in Palestine in the first century. Jesus was crucified and resurrected in Jerusalem, and the church started 50 days later in Jerusalem.

> Christianity spread to many societies and cultures.

Correct. It spread from Jerusalem to be a global belief. Statistics say there are 2.2 billion of us Christians alive now around the Earth.

> The trees and wreaths were always there for some of those cultures.

Evidence?

> Do you honestly think that cultures that celebrated winter solstice one year just said "ok, this year we're calling this Christmas"?

Nope. I've said all along that's not what happened. The celebration of Christmas is unrelated to winter solstice.

> You are conflating origins with modern-day practice.

No I'm not conflating anything. Origins is where it comes from and is exactly what we're talking about.

And also, my family and the family i grew up in, in our modern day practice observes nothing religious. We don't do nativity stuff, nor do we praise any lord. Ours is a happy secular xmas.

> Your point of discussion was that Christians got their Christmas celebration from the winter solstice celebration. I've already proved that to be wrong.

No, you haven't proved anything. You've listed and acknowledged evidence that Christmas evolved from winter solstice, but you certainly haven't proved the opposite.

You seem to think Christians all came from one place. Christianity spread to many societies and cultures. The trees and wreaths were always there for some of those cultures.

Do you honestly think that cultures that celebrated winter solstice one year just said "ok, this year we're calling this Christmas"? You don't seem to understand how things evolve. Seems like a common problem among theists.

You are conflating origins with modern-day practice. Your point of discussion was that Christians got their Christmas celebration from the winter solstice celebration. I've already proved that to be wrong.

Now you're saying that the addition of secular traditions in the 18th century proves that Christians in the first four centuries celebrated Christmas because of the winter solstice. It's a non sequitur: one doesn't follow from the other.

That Christians adopted a secular tradition of trees and wreaths in the 17-18th centuries says absolutely nothing about the origins of Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ.

> Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas.

Are you telling me that people don't have xmas trees and wreaths?

That alone shows that you're wrong.

> > The time of year of the celebration seems to originate in Christianity (according to the Catholic Church recognizing the birth of Jesus 9 months after his conception in Mary's womb).
> Disagree. The winter solstice celebration existed before christ.

Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas.

> Christians celebrating then and calling that celebration christmas does not mean christianity owns the celebration.

Christianity owns the celebration of Christmas. Christians want nothing to do with the winter solstice. (They never have. Christmas was never about the winter solstice.) In turn, the winter solstice has nothing to do with Christmas. These are separate and unrelated events. The western world celebrates on December 25 (not the date of solstice, btw); the eastern world celebrates Christmas on Jan. 6—nothing to do with the solstice. They are separate events that have (and never have had) nothing to do with each other.

>> The whole reason for the season is a religious one.
> No, as shown the celebration was there before christianity was a thing.

The whole reason for CHRISTMAS is a religious one. While the pagans celebrated the winter solstice before Christianity was a thing, that has nothing to do with Christmas. Christmas is a separate event, and it is a distinctly religious, Christian event ("season").

> The add ons come from a variety of sources including christianity. Christianity didn't start it, they added to it, and renamed it.

You keep ignoring the facts. OK, if you have evidence that (1) Christianity didn't start Christmas, that (2) they added to a winter solstice celebration, and (3) they renamed it, it's time for you to put up or stop talking. Let's see the facts.

> The birth of Christ originates in Christianity. The recognition of the day of His birth originates in Christianity. The celebration of the birth of Christ originates in Christianity.

Agreed.

> The time of year of the celebration seems to originate in Christianity (according to the Catholic Church recognizing the birth of Jesus 9 months after his conception in Mary's womb).

Disagree. The winter solstice celebration existed before christ. Christians celebrating then and calling that celebration christmas does not mean christianity owns the celebration.

> The whole reason for the season is a religious one.

No, as shown the celebration was there before christianity was a thing.

> The way the season is celebrated now has a lot of traditional add-ons that come from a variety of secular sources

The add ons come from a variety of sources including christianity. Christianity didn't start it, they added to it, and renamed it.