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[Jarold]

> Most of these practices were from secular sources, but Christmas itself was a distinctly Christian creation.

The name christmas and the santa clause are the only things in my christmas that originate from christianity. That doesn't make the reason for the season a religious one.

[jimwalton]

The birth of Christ originates in Christianity. The recognition of the day of His birth originates in Christianity. The celebration of the birth of Christ originates in Christianity. The time of year of the celebration seems to originate in Christianity (according to the Catholic Church recognizing the birth of Jesus 9 months after his conception in Mary's womb). The whole reason for the season is a religious one. The way the season is celebrated now has a lot of traditional add-ons that come from a variety of secular sources, but the reason we have Christmas is a distinctly Christian and religious source: the recognition and celebration of the incarnation of God in the birth of Jesus. I've given you the evidence.

[Jarold]

> The birth of Christ originates in Christianity. The recognition of the day of His birth originates in Christianity. The celebration of the birth of Christ originates in Christianity.

Agreed.

> The time of year of the celebration seems to originate in Christianity (according to the Catholic Church recognizing the birth of Jesus 9 months after his conception in Mary's womb).

Disagree. The winter solstice celebration existed before christ. Christians celebrating then and calling that celebration christmas does not mean christianity owns the celebration.

> The whole reason for the season is a religious one.

No, as shown the celebration was there before christianity was a thing.

> The way the season is celebrated now has a lot of traditional add-ons that come from a variety of secular sources

The add ons come from a variety of sources including christianity. Christianity didn't start it, they added to it, and renamed it.

[jimwalton]

> > The time of year of the celebration seems to originate in Christianity (according to the Catholic Church recognizing the birth of Jesus 9 months after his conception in Mary's womb).
> Disagree. The winter solstice celebration existed before christ.

Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas.

> Christians celebrating then and calling that celebration christmas does not mean christianity owns the celebration.

Christianity owns the celebration of Christmas. Christians want nothing to do with the winter solstice. (They never have. Christmas was never about the winter solstice.) In turn, the winter solstice has nothing to do with Christmas. These are separate and unrelated events. The western world celebrates on December 25 (not the date of solstice, btw); the eastern world celebrates Christmas on Jan. 6—nothing to do with the solstice. They are separate events that have (and never have had) nothing to do with each other.

>> The whole reason for the season is a religious one.
> No, as shown the celebration was there before christianity was a thing.

The whole reason for CHRISTMAS is a religious one. While the pagans celebrated the winter solstice before Christianity was a thing, that has nothing to do with Christmas. Christmas is a separate event, and it is a distinctly religious, Christian event ("season").

> The add ons come from a variety of sources including christianity. Christianity didn't start it, they added to it, and renamed it.

You keep ignoring the facts. OK, if you have evidence that (1) Christianity didn't start Christmas, that (2) they added to a winter solstice celebration, and (3) they renamed it, it's time for you to put up or stop talking. Let's see the facts.

[Jarold]

> Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas.

Are you telling me that people don't have xmas trees and wreaths?

That alone shows that you're wrong.

[jimwalton]

You are conflating origins with modern-day practice. Your point of discussion was that Christians got their Christmas celebration from the winter solstice celebration. I've already proved that to be wrong.

Now you're saying that the addition of secular traditions in the 18th century proves that Christians in the first four centuries celebrated Christmas because of the winter solstice. It's a non sequitur: one doesn't follow from the other.

That Christians adopted a secular tradition of trees and wreaths in the 17-18th centuries says absolutely nothing about the origins of Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ.

[Jarold]

> You are conflating origins with modern-day practice.

No I'm not conflating anything. Origins is where it comes from and is exactly what we're talking about.

And also, my family and the family i grew up in, in our modern day practice observes nothing religious. We don't do nativity stuff, nor do we praise any lord. Ours is a happy secular xmas.

> Your point of discussion was that Christians got their Christmas celebration from the winter solstice celebration. I've already proved that to be wrong.

No, you haven't proved anything. You've listed and acknowledged evidence that Christmas evolved from winter solstice, but you certainly haven't proved the opposite.

You seem to think Christians all came from one place. Christianity spread to many societies and cultures. The trees and wreaths were always there for some of those cultures.

Do you honestly think that cultures that celebrated winter solstice one year just said "ok, this year we're calling this Christmas"? You don't seem to understand how things evolve. Seems like a common problem among theists.

[jimwalton]

> Origins is where it comes from and is exactly what we're talking about.

Well, good. Then you realize that wreaths and trees have nothing to do with your question about origins.

> And also, my family and the family i grew up in, in our modern day practice observes nothing religious. We don't do nativity stuff, nor do we praise any lord. Ours is a happy secular xmas.

Good. That's fine. What you practice has nothing to do with the origins of the holiday (how and why Christmas started).

> You've listed and acknowledged evidence that Christmas evolved from winter solstice, but you certainly haven't proved the opposite.

You need to go back and read my post. What I listed and acknowledged was exactly the opposite. Here's what I said (this will be the third time I've given this evidence:

1. The evidence is strong that Jesus was not born in December.
2. When the early church writers even mention Jesus's birth, which is rare, they mention it being at other times, not in December.
3. There's no evidence that Jesus's birth was recognized or celebrated in the first several centuries.
4. The Romans celebrated the winter solstice, but there's no evidence in the first several centuries of Christianity that Christmas was even celebrated, let alone that it was celebrated at the winter solstice.
5. The early Christians did everything possible to distance themselves from Roman practices and particularly Roman religion, so there was no using of a Roman festival to celebrate Christmas.
6. It's only about AD 350 or so that December 25 is mentioned as the birthday of Jesus, and there is no mention of a celebration let alone anything to do with the winter solstice.
7. The Eastern Church has never celebrated Christmas at the winter solstice.
8. What information we have from the Roman Catholic Church puts Christmas in December because they put the conception in March. The birth of Christ has nothing to do with the winter solstice.

> You seem to think Christians all came from one place

They did. They came from the ministry of Jesus in Palestine in the first century. Jesus was crucified and resurrected in Jerusalem, and the church started 50 days later in Jerusalem.

> Christianity spread to many societies and cultures.

Correct. It spread from Jerusalem to be a global belief. Statistics say there are 2.2 billion of us Christians alive now around the Earth.

> The trees and wreaths were always there for some of those cultures.

Evidence?

> Do you honestly think that cultures that celebrated winter solstice one year just said "ok, this year we're calling this Christmas"?

Nope. I've said all along that's not what happened. The celebration of Christmas is unrelated to winter solstice.

[Jarold]

> Well, good. Then you realize that wreaths and trees have nothing to do with your question about origins.

There's a huge disconnect here. You seem to be unable to connect facts with what we're talking about.

Trees and wreaths were used by solstice celebrations in Norway or something like that for example. That's where that "chrstmas" tradition came from.

If you're going to start out your response right off the bat with an untruth so blatant, there's really no need for me to read the rest of your response as it's likely more of the same. So, later dude.

[jimwalton]

Sure, maybe the trees and wreaths traditions came from solstice celebrations. And very possible they were integrated into Christmas celebrations in the 1500s. I'm fine with that. But that's not an origins story for Christmas; it's a blending of two traditions many centuries later.

As far as we know, Christianity came to the Scandinavian countries in the 8th-12th centuries. It would have been some time after that that the tradition of the wreath got incorporated into Christmas celebrations. It's a blending of two traditions many centuries later. But that's not an origins story for Christmas.