> But that doesn't explain why hell, an unnatural occurrence, is the natural destination for said people, a destination that god is unable to change.

It's not a "natural" destination. Heaven and hell are spiritual and physical, not just natural. Hell is not the "natural" destination for people; God created it as a destination for Satan and his ilk. But if people reject God, there is no other choice than for those people to not be with God.

> so if I die before I get married I will haven no sex in heaven.

It just may be that you are thinking wrongly about heaven. Your view is strongly based in physicality, physical drives, and physical satisfaction. It's just possible you're thinking way too small about God's presence and Heaven. God frees our minds and expands our thoughts. God is larger than the cosmos and a deeper subject.

> Sinners go to hell because they don't want to be with a God they don't recognize, don't love, don't have a personal relationship with, and reject.

But that doesn't explain why hell, an unnatural occurrence, is the natural destination for said people, a destination that god is unable to change.

> Scripture relates to us what relationships reflect the person, holiness, righteousness, and love of God. There are many kinds of relationships that do not. God's nature is the ground of all reality, and creation reflects that nature. But people made decisions on their own, contrary to God's created order and intents.

Again, that isn't really a yes/no answer.

> The Bible doesn't say anything about any of these. As far as I can tell, you've made these up. The only one that is kind of close is what you said about worshipping God, except that in heaven we don't have to worship God, we want to.

The bible does say it though, the bible says that you are only allowed to have sex if you're married, so if I die before I get married I will haven no sex in heaven.

Gluttony is a sin, so in heaven I will have to eat in small amounts.


The bible says to turn the other cheek, so I won't be able to rumble anymore.

It says to kill gay people, say that definitely won't be okay in heaven.

> I LOVE metal music. My most recent favorite is Dream Theater.

I listen to bands that are fairly critical of the bible, like SOAD, Marilyn Manson, and Nirvana; Specific songs would be Suite Pee, Target Audience, and Lithium.

I doubt god would permit those.

> If God created hell, and hell is not a force of nature, why do sinners naturally go to hell?

Sinners go to hell because they don't want to be with a God they don't recognize, don't love, don't have a personal relationship with, and reject.

> Exactly, and it's impossible for a gay person to belong to god, right?

Scripture relates to us what relationships reflect the person, holiness, righteousness, and love of God. There are many kinds of relationships that do not. God's nature is the ground of all reality, and creation reflects that nature. But people made decisions on their own, contrary to God's created order and intents.

> in heaven we still have to follow all these needless rules, like no sex (out of wedlock), no overeating, no fighting (I like wrestling), no being gay, we would have to worship god, I don't want to be bound by those rules on earth, much less for eternity.

The Bible doesn't say anything about any of these. As far as I can tell, you've made these up. The only one that is kind of close is what you said about worshipping God, except that in heaven we don't *have* to worship God, we *want* to.

> I also presume that metal music

I LOVE metal music. My most recent favorite is Dream Theater.

> It's odd that you think money would make you happy. So many people with money claim that it sure doesn't.

Well, I'm pretty sure it would fix all my problems.

> Sure I did. I've answered it at least a half dozen times. It's binary: you're either in or you're out.

No, you haven't answered it at all, my question is: If God created hell, and hell is not a force of nature, why do sinners naturally go to hell?

Just "It's binary" doesn't answer that question.

> If you don't belong to God, death is not a good thing. That's what Jesus warns about so repeatedly.

Exactly, and it's impossible for a gay person to belong to god, right?

> Rules? In heaven? What are you talking about?

Well yeah, in heaven we still have to follow all these needless rules, like no sex (out of wedlock), no overeating, no fighting (I like wrestling), no being gay, we would have to worship god, I don't want to be bound by those rules on earth, much less for eternity.

I also presume that metal music and violent games would be outlawed since they're sinful.

> if I could be reborn as a millionaire I would be very happy with life.

It's odd that you think money would make you happy. So many people with money claim that it sure doesn't.

> You're not answering my question at all.

Sure I did. I've answered it at least a half dozen times. It's binary: you're either in or you're out.

> But if you murder a gay person, they will not transition to a very happy place, they will go to hell, so I don't see how that's a good thing.

If you don't belong to God, death is not a good thing. That's what Jesus warns about so repeatedly.

> No, I wouldn't be happy because there are too many rules.

Rules? In heaven? What are you talking about?

> Exactly, that's my point, being divine is what would make me happy, but god doesn't want that.

It's not that God doesn't want that, but that it's self-contradictory. Divine beings have no beginning. Since you have a beginning, it's self-contradictory to think you could be divine.

Listen. It's obvious that you are an individual who is in intense internal (mental, emotional, and spiritual) pain. You have suffered much, and obviously been emotionally abused (your dad got arrested, no one has ever spoken a kind word to you, you have no friends). I feel very deeply sorry for what you've had to experience and my heart hurts for how you feel. And you have SO much anger at God it's just bubbling out of you like a boiling pot.

It's also clear that no matter what I say to you, you reject it outright. This isn't a discussion, really; it's my trying to help and trying to explain, and you rejecting everything I say because the depth of your hurt overshadows everything. I feel great pain for you.

I'm not in a position to be your counsellor. It's obvious that you don't want to hear anything I have to say. The things I have to say that could help you (God loves you, God wants to heal you and give you peace, etc.), you outright reject. Your hurt does all the talking.

I guess I'm saying I don't know how to proceed. We could go back and forth for many hundreds of exchanges, but they're starting to all sound alike. Maybe we should cut off our conversation. But we can always talk again later. I'm glad to talk to you.

But if you want to continue this conversation, we can. I'm not trying to be rude. I just wonder about its continuing value. I'll let you decide.

> I find it odd that you want to be reincarnated when you see life as being so miserable.

I don't find all of life miserable, just my current state, if I could be reborn as a millionaire I would be very happy with life.

> You are either in the arms of God (a love relationship) or you're not. If you don't want to be in the arms of God, then the only other status or position is to NOT be in the arms of God.

You're not answering my question at all.

> Death is not a cessation, but rather a transition. Once humans begin life, we continue for eternity. Death transitions us from one sort of existence (human flesh) to another sort of existence (the spirit world). The only time God takes life from people is as an act of judgment. He facilitates their transition to Phase II.

But if you murder a gay person, they will not transition to a very happy place, they will go to hell, so I don't see how that's a good thing.

> The choice to be with God is a choice for life, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, joy, and peace.

No, I wouldn't be happy because there are too many rules.

I can't happily live under a tyrant who commanded my death, one who has literally killed 99% of all living beings at one point, one who would even allow me to go to hell.

> Has a person ever brought you food, a blanket

Yeah, but that was them, not god.

> a kind word, or friendship?

Not really.

> None of us become gods. Suffering doesn't make us divine.

Exactly, that's my point, being divine is what would make me happy, but god doesn't want that.

> It teaches us the reality of sin; it makes us hunger for peace and goodness

Which I don't think could be found through god.

> it brings out the true nature of our hearts

So suffering is what made me a bad person?

> It could even be said that without suffering there would never be any progress. It is suffering that motivates science to learn. It is suffering that motivates doctors to heal. It is suffering that motivates business to innovate. Suffering is where we learn perseverance, courage and strength.

I would beg to differ, it's pride and passion that fuels innovation.

> There were times I let my kids make their own choices and make the wrong choices because that's the only way they could ever learn.

So you would let your child get caught on fire? Or suffer for potentially eternity? That's what god is doing.

> If good and evil are human constructs, then you can't attribute them to God, unless you perceive God as also human, in which case He isn't God—another self-contradiction.

No, you're creating needless illogical barriers.

I can put my human morals on a Bear, if it eats my dog I will view it as evil; It's the same with god, just because he's different doesn't mean I can't view him through my moral lens.

> Why can't god allow me to live on earth indefinitely? Can't he just make me reincarnate?

Human flesh doesn't have the capacity for eternal existence. After an initial period of growth (from infancy to capability), life is an irreversible decline into inevitable death.

I find it odd that you want to be reincarnated when you see life as being so miserable. Hinduism believes in reincarnation, and if that is true, reincarnation is a system of an endless chain of miserable lives. Just look at the suffering in India.

> Okay, so if Hell is not a law of nature, why does denying god automatically naturally make us go to hell?

It's binary. When the car pulls out of the driveway, you're either in the car or you're not, to refer to a previous analogy. You are either in the arms of God (a love relationship) or you're not. If you don't want to be in the arms of God, then the only other status or position is to NOT be in the arms of God.

> So why does he want it taken from people?

Death is not a cessation, but rather a transition. Once humans begin life, we continue for eternity. Death transitions us from one sort of existence (human flesh) to another sort of existence (the spirit world). The only time God takes life from people is as an act of judgment. He facilitates their transition to Phase II.

> Why can't he take my free will away?

That would be a contradiction. If God takes away your free will, it was never free to begin with. But since God gave it to you, and it truly is free, then He can't take it away. It is yours to do with as you choose.

> So why would god rather I go to hell than bring me to heaven? Why does he put us in this .22 position where both choices are horrible?

Good doesn't want you to go to hell. God doesn't want ANYONE to go to hell.

Both choices aren't horrible. The choice to be with God is a choice for life, love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, joy, and peace. But if you don't want to be with God, then you choose the absence of those things.

> Doesn't the bible say to dedicate all of your life and soul to god? Why would anything else matter?

Yes, the Bible does say that, and that's my point. It ALL matters. Our life (our thoughts, our physical existence, our emotions, our will, our strength, our values, our time, our talents, our energies, our priorities) and our soul (the part of us that connects to God) both and all matter.

> How is god doing anything for me? When has he bought me food? When did he buy me a blanket in the middle of winter? Never.

The Bible is clear that God does His work through people (Matt. 25). Has a person ever brought you food, a blanket, a kind word, or friendship?

> I'll never get the chance to be a god, no matter how much I suffer.

None of us become gods. Suffering doesn't make us divine. It teaches us the reality of sin; it makes us hunger for peace and goodness; it forms our character in ways that ease never can; it brings out the true nature of our hearts; and it teaches us about goodness. It is only through suffering that we appreciate goodness.

> Yes, he's a god, that is nothing to him, plus it was his choice.

In Jesus, God was a real person. Tearing the muscles off of his body hurt him just as severely as it would you or me. And the fact that it was his choice doesn't mean it hurt less.

> If he loves me, why will he let me suffer? That's not a very fatherly decision.

There were times I let my kids make their own choices and make the wrong choices because that's the only way they could ever learn. We learn from pain, from mistakes, and from suffering. As horrible as suffering can be, it also has many benefits that nothing else could teach.

It could even be said that without suffering there would never be any progress. It is suffering that motivates science to learn. It is suffering that motivates doctors to heal. It is suffering that motivates business to innovate. Suffering is where we learn perseverance, courage and strength. Perseverance is what motivates us to create opportunities. Suffering isn't the enemy, it's fertilizer. It's about the only thing that motivates us.

> I'm not contradicting myself, I think god is evil by my human standards, I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you.

It's a difficult concept for me because it's another example of you allowing for self-contradiction and not thinking a thing of it. If good and evil are human constructs, then you can't attribute them to God, unless you perceive God as also human, in which case He isn't God—another self-contradiction.

> Because in this sense it's binary. You're either with God or you're not. If you're parents are going on a long vacation, and you don't want to go, you either get in the car or you don't (don't push the analogy beyond its intent; you know what I'm talking about).

Why can't god allow me to live on earth indefinitely? Can't he just make me reincarnate?

> Hell isn't a law of nature. The choice is you're either with God (you accept Him, love Him, and obey Him, and have committed your life to Him) or you're not. The law of nature in this case is binary. If you come to a fork in the road, you have a binary choice: left or right.

Okay, so if Hell is not a law of nature, why does denying god automatically naturally make us go to hell?

> Life is an immutable attribute of God.

So why does he want it taken from people?

> he can't force a relationship and leave your free will intact.

Why can't he take my free will away?

> Yes, heaven is perfect. No, God can't force you there. No, God can't make you love Him. No, God can't interfere with your free will (or it isn't free will). No, God can't make you enjoy Him (or it isn't joy, it's pure-out coercion and slavery).

So why would god rather I go to hell than bring me to heaven? Why does he put us in this .22 position where both choices are horrible?

> No, that's not meaningless. It's all meaningful. The destination is most certainly NOT all that matters. The journey is an important part of the picture. It ALL matters. We are whole people who live whole lives and must account for all of the past, present, and the future, both in this life and the next.

Doesn't the bible say to dedicate all of your life and soul to god? Why would anything else matter?

> God has done plenty for you, especially if you have parents who are family and who have helped you. You certainly didn't choose your parents.

How is god doing anything for me? When has he bought me food? When did he buy me a blanket in the middle of winter? Never.

> Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. I hope you've heard about children and women who are kidnapped and enslaved to do sex acts in front of cameras so that their owners can make money off them.

Of course, but that's illegal and 99% of what's on pornhub is not that.

> And you think this is like stubbing your toe?????

Relatively, yes, that was barely 1% of god's existence, he is a god that can literally do anything, plus he chose for that to happen to him, it was his choice.

I'll never get the chance to be a god, no matter how much I suffer.

> this is like stubbing your toe????

Yes, he's a god, that is nothing to him, plus it was his choice.

> He could, but the scars show anyone who sees Him the reality of His suffering and the death of His love for us.

If he loves me, why will he let me suffer? That's not a very fatherly decision.

> You're contradicting yourself. You said good or evil and evil were created by us. Then God can't be evil if evil is a human creation in the human world.

I'm not contradicting myself, I think god is evil by my human standards, I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you.

> And will the people you harmed remember enough to try to harm you in return in the afterlife? Is it just going to be more of the same like what we have here?

Possibly.

> If god could create a 2nd option (Hell) Why is he unable to create a 3rd option?

Because in this sense it's binary. You're either with God or you're not. If you're parents are going on a long vacation, and you don't want to go, you either get in the car or you don't (don't push the analogy beyond its intent; you know what I'm talking about).

> That doesn't make any sense, there's no logic to this, if god created hell, how is it a necessary law of nature?

Hell isn't a law of nature. The choice is you're either with God (you accept Him, love Him, and obey Him, and have committed your life to Him) or you're not. The law of nature in this case is binary. If you come to a fork in the road, you have a binary choice: left or right. Driving straight into the tree in front of you won't get you anywhere. Some choices are binary, and that's sometimes the law of nature. As far as I know, for instance, DNA is binary with regard to sex (gender)n in humans. You're either male or female. I know there are cases where a person has confused genitalia, but their DNA is either XX or XY—no other choices. You may think that's not fair, but it's nature.

> How is he "Life" if he commanded my death? How is slavery "Life"?

God is life by nature. God cannot be not life. God will never cease to exist. Life is an immutable attribute of God.

> Then why can't he make me go to heaven?

I've answered this repeatedly. Heaven is about a love relationship with God that is freely chosen. God can't force love or it's not love; he can't force a relationship and leave your free will intact.

> Exactly, but heaven is supposedly perfect, right? And if god could force me, he could make me enjoy it too, right?

Yes, heaven is perfect. No, God can't force you there. No, God can't make you love Him. No, God can't interfere with your free will (or it isn't free will). No, God can't make you enjoy Him (or it isn't joy, it's pure-out coercion and slavery).

> But from a Christian perspective, is that not meaningless? If the destination is the only thing that matters, why care about any of that?

No, that's not meaningless. It's all meaningful. The destination is most certainly NOT all that matters. The journey is an important part of the picture. It ALL matters. We are whole people who live whole lives and must account for all of the past, present, and the future, both in this life and the next.

> Of course not, but my Spouse and Parents are family, and they've helped me, god is not my family and he's never done anything for me.

God has done plenty for you, especially if you have parents who are family and who have helped you. You certainly didn't choose your parents.

> God has a plan for everything, right?

Once again, no. You have a lot of misunderstandings about Christianity, distortions about God, and belief in some outright contradictory things.

God has a plan for some things, but not everything. People have free will; they get to make their own choices. God doesn't plan everyone's lives.

> He knew all of this before he created me, is it not inhumane for him to knowingly make me suffer through this?

God is not making you suffer. Your sufferings are coming from other sources.

> No, porn and sex slavery are very different things.

Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. I hope you've heard about children and women who are kidnapped and enslaved to do sex acts in front of cameras so that their owners can make money off them.

> Because he never really suffered, relatively, what jesus supposedly went through is just like me stubbing my toe.

Jesus was flogged. Flogging was being hit with a multiple-strand whip embedded with pieces of glass and metal. It usually tore the flesh right off the bones. People who were flogged at times had their flesh and muscle structure so flayed that their intestines and inner organs were exposed. Many people died just from the flogging and never got to the crucifixion. And you think this is like stubbing your toe?????

Crucifixion was slow death by asphyxiation. Hands and feet were nailed or tied to crosses. The longer one hung there, the upper torso cramped and a person couldn't breathe. By survival instinct they would push up to relieve the cramp, causing severe agony in the feet that were pierced with nails. Because of the pain, they couldn't hold that position for long, and slumped back down, causing searing pain in the hands that were nailed to the cross-pieces. Then they couldn't breathe, and the cycle started over again. Again, this is like stubbing your toe???? Sigh.

> Why? If god can do anything, why can't he just remove his scars?

He could, but the scars show anyone who sees Him the reality of His suffering and the death of His love for us. Sometimes there are reasons to not heal.

> Couldn't god just fix it (the Earth) though?

He will. At the right time, when history has played itself through. He will. That's His promise.

> What the hell? That makes absolutely no sense, bu my standards god is evil.

You're contradicting yourself. You said good or evil and evil were created by us. Then God can't be evil if evil is a human creation in the human world.

> the people you harmed will remember what you did, your crimes will be remembered; The people you helped will remember what you did, they will still love you for it.

And will the people you harmed remember enough to try to harm you in return in the afterlife? Is it just going to be more of the same like what we have here?

> God has made every provision and done everything that is His to do to keep people from going there. But if they still choose to use their free will (and their anger) to reject Him, He can't FORCE them to love Him. Forced love isn't love at all, but rather coercion.

That doesn't answer my question at all.

If god could create a 2nd option (Hell) Why is he unable to create a 3rd option?

> Hell is "separation from God." If they were damned, they'd be separated from God. There is no other option.

That doesn't make any sense, there's no logic to this, if god created hell, how is it a necessary law of nature?

> And I'm very sorry to hear that. Being with God is your only chance for life, since God is life, and separation from God is therefore its opposite, or death.

How is he "Life" if he commanded my death? How is slavery "Life"?

> The rest of the text tells us how loving and compassionate God is, full of grace and mercy.

Then why can't he make me go to heaven?

> It's not love if He forces you. Seriously, if you met another man, and he took you captive and said he was going to force you to love him no matter how you felt, it would be slavery, not love, and you know it. It would be rape and sexual slavery, and love would have nothing to do with it.

Exactly, but heaven is supposedly perfect, right? And if god could force me, he could make me enjoy it too, right?

> I get to choose where I'm going to live. I got to choose where I went to school and what I majored in. I got to choose my spouse and whether or not to have children. Every day, every conversation, I get to choose whether to be gracious or nasty on this forum. I get to choose whether to forgive someone for hurting me or not. I choose whether to pay attention to my wife or ignore her. I choose how to act when I get angry at her, whether to seek resolution or be a stink about it and not speak to her.

But from a Christian perspective, is that not meaningless? If the destination is the only thing that matters, why care about any of that?

> You'll find that you love your spouse more than your friends. Is that unacceptable, too? There's nothing unacceptable about degrees of love.

Of course not, but my Spouse and Parents are family, and they've helped me, god is not my family and he's never done anything for me.

> God didn't make you poor. God didn't make your dad get arrested. God didn't make all your friends leave you. You are unjustified in blaming all this awfulness on God. God didn't do it.

God has a plan for everything, right? He knows everything that will happen, right? He knew all of this before he created me, is it not inhumane for him to knowingly make me suffer through this?

> They don't have anything to do with you. They are answers to your question of "How have we made ourselves into sexual monsters and predators?"

But we haven't, they have.

> Many times it is not. It's part of what sex trafficking and sex slavery is all about.

No, porn and sex slavery are very different things.

> On March 27, 2013, I was asked "Why is the gay issue so front and center?" His point in the post was that homosexuality is made the most important issue in the culture, and it is on that basis that God decides where everyone will go (heteros go to heaven, gays go to hell)
> On December 2, 2013, I was asked why christians are so prejudiced as to consider homosexuality the ultimate sin—the end-all and do-all of behavioral morality.
> On March 15, 1017, I was asked, "Why the preoccupation with homosexuality? Why is this the most important question of life?"
> On May 14, 2017, I was asked "Will all masturbaters end up in hell?" As if sexual behavior was how God judged people for their eternal destination.

I don't see any of those questions "Making sex the meaning of life", they're just asking questions.

> You made a statement: "Jesus has never suffered." Why is it that his suffering doesn't count as refutation to your assertion?

Because he never really suffered, relatively, what jesus supposedly went through is just like me stubbing my toe.

> Emotional suffering never leaves physical scars. And his crucifixion most definitely did leave physical scars

Why? If god can do anything, why can't he just remove his scars?

> This is wrong. God is not going to throw it in the garbage some day. The Earth will be where heaven is. The Earth will be reconciled to God and redeemed, and this is where we will spend eternity, for Heaven and Earth will be joined.

Couldn't god just fix it though?

> Whoa. If good and evil are created by us, you can't blame God for being or doing evil. Evil is OUR thing.

What the hell? That makes absolutely no sense, bu my standards god is evil.

> Explain afterlife theology of Cernunnosism to me. I see in material that Cernunnos sings to people on their way to the spirit world. Does everyone go? Are there no distinctions? People can be horrifically evil or compassionate and good, and they all end up the same? I don't know much of anything about your religion, so you'll have to school me. I guess my first question is: Does it matter, then, how you live, if there is just a single afterlife?

I mean, the people you harmed will remember what you did, your crimes will be remembered; The people you helped will remember what you did, they will still love you for it.