If it were the case that God can choose to create only those people he knows, in advance, will submit, then His knowledge is false. If He knows about the lives of people and their decisions, and yet those people never exist and never will exist, His knowledge is fictional, and therefore He is not God. No, instead lives come into existence biologically, people have free will, and there are authentic consequences for decisions.

> God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with free will. Knowledge is not causative. Free will, to be free will, is the necessarily causative mechanism where by free will choices are made, and they have no dependence on or submission to the omniscience of God.

You misunderstood me.

I didn't say it was causative.

I said god knows someone's choices before he creates them.

And then god chooses to create the person.

So he can choose to create only those people he knows, in advance, will submit.

> You have to demonstrate that it's not logically possible.

No problem.

P1: Heaven is only for people who have made a choice to love God and commit themselves to him.

P2: There must necessarily be a place and time to make that choice.

P3: A life before Heaven is necessary where choices are not only possible but also real.

C: Therefore it is not possible to start off with Heaven populated by the general populace, skipping the "life on Earth" stage.

> Sure you can. God knows, in advance, all free will choices that are made.

No, you can't. God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with free will. Knowledge is not causative. Free will, to be free will, is the necessarily causative mechanism where by free will choices are made, and they have no dependence on or submission to the omniscience of God.

> So he could choose to create only those people that will fully submit immediately upon being created in heaven.

No. Free will submission is a choice and can't be "created" into someone.

> Nope. Not possible.

You have to demonstrate that it's not logically possible.

> You can't have a place where free wills have been fully submitted to God unless you first give those free wills an opportunity to submit or not.

Sure you can. God knows, in advance, all free will choices that are made.

So he could choose to create only those people that will fully submit immediately upon being created in heaven.

Nope. Not possible. Heaven is for those who have made the choice to love God. You can't populate Heaven with people who are still rebellious and separated from God. The physical world with its trials and choices had to come first. There is no other way. It's like saying, "Well, can't we just have a president in a democracy without elections?" Um, no. The choice has to precede the term.
You can't have a place where free wills have been fully submitted to God unless you first give those free wills an opportunity to submit or not. And part of that world is one of dynamism rather than robots and staticism.

So god could have just made heaven to begin with. No need to do the physical world.

Heaven is in a different category because (1) it's a spiritual-physical world, and (2) the only people who are there are those who have submitted their wills fully to God. My comment was made in the context of a physical world (life on Earth) where people have not used their free will to submit wholly to God. These factors change everything. The question at hand is why God doesn't stop crime and physical/natural tragedies like hurricanes. You can see instantly this is a different context.

> So is it true that "God can easily create a world where we can live happily with zero chances of tragedy happening"? If so, we cease to be human and there is there is no science and no reasoning.

So there are tragedies in heaven?

No, God doesn't control thoughts. There is no notion, let alone teaching, or even an example in the Bible that God controls thoughts.

> If you want God to stop people from wanting to commit crime and natural tragedies, you want Him to control thoughts and actions.

But he already controls thoughts, doesn't he? For example, do you want to take razor blades and slice your eyeballs up? Do you want to ingest hot coals? Do you want to peel your own skin off with a pair of pliers every spring? I'm assuming you don't. You could still do it because you have free will, but you have no desire to do it.

It seems reasonable to think that if you were designed to not desire to take razor blades to your eyes, then you could just as easily be designed to not desire to kill another human for example.