Board index Assorted Bible Questions

Assorted and general Bible questions that really don't fit any of the other categories

If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby Newbie » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:07 am

The literal interpretation of Eden damns us for daring to disobey (by seeking knowledge forbidden to us), but more and more "sophisticated" interpretations say that a metaphorical interpretation is appropriate. However, doesn't this mean that we were created disobedient? Damned by our nature?
Newbie
 
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:34 pm

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:22 am

To me, the Eden story is archetypal (neither metaphorical nor literal). While Adam and Eve were historical beings (real people in a real past, though not necessarily the first hominids), the reason the story is told in Gn. 2-3 is to show us how Adam & Eve are archetypes of the human race. The text is not addressing their material formation, but the forming of all humanity: we are all mortal (formed from "dust") and we are all gendered halves. They are not prototypes or metaphors, but representatives of all other members of the group.

Adam & Eve (and therefore all humanity) were not dared to disobey. They were invited to be priests and priestesses in God's temple (the earth) and to have a personal relationship with him. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (though literal), was a symbol of their choice to relate to God on His own terms, or to choose to operate according to self. The choice presented by the tree is not "Are you going to be a person who thinks for himself, or an empty-headed slave of God", but rather "Are you going to act as if you made yourself and you know how best to govern yourself, or are you going to act as if God made you and you refer to him as the one who knows you and loves you." It was not a matter of seeking knowledge forbidden to us. "The knowledge of good and evil" is a judicial idiom; humankind was being presented with a choice to judge the legitimacy of God's claim upon him as his creator and moral ground. To decide against that was to cut his ties to God and stand alone as his own Master of the Universe.

We were certainly not created to be disobedient. Eden was an invitation to life, truth, morality, and godlikeness through the proper means to a desirable end.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby Adverb » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:46 am

And how does the talking snake fit into this?
Adverb
 

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:58 am

It wasn't a talking snake at all. We have to look at what it means, not just what it says. Serpents were significant religious characters in the ancient world. They were associated religiously with both death and life. We find mention of them in the Gilgamesh Epic as well as Egyptian religion. They represented wisdom, chaos, immortality, and well-being. Already we can see why the cunning creature in the Garden is portrayed as a serpent.

The serpent in the ancient world was endowed with divine or semi-divine qualities, and was often worshipped. The Hebrew word for serpent is nahash, which is indeed the common word for snake, but it also possibly means "able to stand upright." There are all kinds of verbal possibilities here. For instance, nahash is the same root as nehoset, which means "bronze." So the shiny, upright snake in Number 21.9 is the same root: it was a literal thing, but a spiritual symbol. "Snake" could also be a word play, because the Hebrew word for "deceive" is very close to it, and is the same root as for magic and divination. As I mentioned, snakes in the ancient world were very much associated with spiritual powers, magic, and cultic rituals.

So what if this "thing" (the nhs) was a spiritual power, represented to the woman as a bright creature, speaking "spiritual wisdom", and yet was deceiving her—and the word for "snake" would be used for all of that? Just a little bit of research changes the whole picture. What we have here is most likely not a talking snake (like a silly fairy tale or a mythological creature), but a spiritual being that Eve would respect and converse with, but would deceive her.

We also notice that this being, whatever it was (but almost certifiably not a talking snake), is not presented as any kind of divinity, but obviously as something created by God. The author has no intention of identifying the serpent beyond this brief narrative. The way it's written is clearly demythologizing
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby The King » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:02 am

> Humanity chose to sin.

You don't find it all significant the every last one of all of the multi-billions of people who ever lived chose to rebel against the Christian god rather than do his will. You don't find that fact to be any sort of reflection upon the skill or ethics of the manufacturer.

> The verses he is quoting are explaining how life works after the choice was made to sin,

The New Testament does not say that we chose to be born into sinful flesh. It says we were born deserving of wrath.
The King
 

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:07 am

> chose to rebel

What I do find significant is the power of sin in the human soul. Satan's plan to destroy humanity played perfectly into our nature that the consequences were universal. It's no reflection on the (lack of) skill or (demented) ethics of the manufacturer, but on the nature of free will necessarily inherent in the system.

> The New Testament does not say that we chose to be born into sinful flesh.

You're right. It says that we were born with a sin nature, not meaning that we were born evil but that we were born in a state of separation from God. In our natural state of separation from God, all of us chose at one point or another in our lives to do things that were bad, and so we bring guilt on ourselves.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby I'll Be George » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:11 am

Except there is no human who CAN choose to not sin, so the point still stands that a perfect being made an imperfect people and then punished them for being imperfect.
I'll Be George
 

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:16 am

I think you are mistaking imperfection with potential. Supposed I'm an artisan who can make the most exquisite cut glass sculptures. And let's suppose, for the sake of the analogy, that I can create a perfect work. That doesn't mean it isn't capable of being dropped and broken. And the fact that it is able to break is no reflection on my skill or ethics.

God, by definition, is uncreated. Anything created, therefore also by definition, is less than God, and is not God. Because God is who he is eternally, and everything about him is eternal (and therefore unchangeable), anything that is not eternal God, by definition, has the potential for change. this is not a reflection on the creator's skill or ethics, but the nature of a created (finite) being. Therefore I would content, in disagreement with you, that a perfect being made a perfect work, subject to change by definition, but nonetheless perfect. When that being chose (with the reasoning ability and free will that was a mark of its creator) to exercise it's decision-making ability contrary to its Creator, and chose to be broken, they deserved punishment for a willful choice of rebellion, not because their Creator was at fault in the way he made them.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby Wooster » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:05 am

> While Adam and Eve were historical beings

Evidence?

> we are all mortal (formed from "dust")

No, what dust is formed of, is not found in the human body. The human body is mostly water which is not very compatible with dust.

> We were certainly not created to be disobedient

What is it with religious people and these BDSM fetishes of being slaves? You mean we should be robotic slaves without thinking for ourselves?
Wooster
 

Re: If Eden is metaphorical, why are we all damned?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:19 am

> Evidence for Adam and Eve as historical beings

In the Old Testament Adam becomes part of the genealogy (Gn. 5), and in the New Testament a real event featuring real people is the clearest reading to explain the entrance of sin and death in to the world (Rom. 5).

> No, what dust is formed of, is not found in the human body

Yes, that was exactly my point. Since what dust is formed of is not found in the human body, the reference to dust is not talking about Adam's material origins, but his archetypal significance: he is mortal. Dust is a symbol of death.

> What is it with religious people and these BDSM fetishes of being slaves? You mean we should be robotic slaves without thinking for ourselves?

Wow, this is just a wild misunderstanding and a total distortion of anything I said. I was saying just the opposite. Maybe you need to read it again. The choice was NOT to be an empty-headed slave. The choice was whether God was our reference point, or self, whether we would live in relation to God and enjoy life, truth, morality, and godlikeness, or to cut off that relation to God and reap the disastrous consequences of losing our reference point. It is a complete misunderstanding to think that I was saying ANYTHING about being robotic slaves. Of COURSE we should think for ourselves. The decision was whether our minds would be free and open in relation to God, or subject to futility and darkened if we cut ourselves off from Him (Rom. 1.21).
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Next

Return to Assorted Bible Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest