Board index ‹ The Problem of Evil and Suffering

[New Beginner]

Did God know 9/11 would happen when he created the earth? Assuming a god is omnipotent, he would know everything thats gonna happen. Before he created the earth, he knew that if he creates it, 9/11 will happen. Would it not be correct to say god caused 9/11 because he wanted it to happen?

[jimwalton]

No, it's not correct to say that. Knowledge doesn't imply causality. Just because I know my friend is going to pick chocolate (she's a chocolate addict!) doesn't mean I made her do it. No matter what I know, that knowledge has no relation to a causal mechanism.

You may think that's a trivial example, and we're talking about an omniscient God. But there's no basis on which to claim that our knowledge is passive but God's is deterministic. Knowledge is passive, not causal. For knowledge to influence another or an event, or to effect change in any sense, it must be applied by some power or causal phenomenon. Knowledge itself is impotent; power is where knowledge becomes causal. You have no logical (or theological) grounds to claim that God's knowledge is responsible for everything (or even anything) that happens, or that knowledge can make you do anything. You are make an assumptive leap that God's knowledge is somehow substantially different than ours, not just qualitatively and quantitatively different, but you have no basis, either logical or theological, to make such a claim. The force that you are claiming makes you do things is not knowledge; that's not possible.

Let's push your thoughts all the way to the edges and see if it holds. Suppose I know that you'll be a little peeved (just a little) by my response, and that you disagree with me. OK, that doesn't take a rocket scientist. You and I disagree. But let's suppose I'm twice as smart as I am in real life (wouldn't that be nice). How does that affect you? It doesn't. Suppose I'm ten times as smart. How does that affect you? It doesn't. Suppose I'm omniscient. How that affect you? It still doesn't. There is no causality in knowledge.

[Anamata]

But God created everything, yes? This means that 1) God created the universe knowing that 9/11 would happen and 2) he created specifically this universe in which 9/11 happened, and not another universe in which it did not.

[jimwalton]

Yes, God created everything. (but not people's behavior and decisions)
Yes, God created the universe knowing that 9/11 would happen. (along with every other good and bad thing through history)
Yes, he created specifically this universe in which 9/11 happened, and not another universe in which it did not.

I agree with all three of your points, but that gets you nowhere. Knowledge is passive, not causal. For instance, I know you're going to read my reply, but I didn't make you do it. My knowledge is meaningless to your actions.

[Zas]

God can not be omnipotent if we have free will, and vice versa. Free will implies that we have the ability to make a decision of our own accord, where as God's omnipotence implies that he must know what is going to happen next. In other words God knew before he created the universe that, if he created the universe, 9/11 was going to happen. He knew it was going to happen and did nothing about it.

[jimwalton]

You're confusing a few things here. First, you're mixing up omnipotence and omniscience, and secondly, you're misunderstanding omnipotence. Let me try to help.

Omnipotence doesn't mean that there are no limits to what God can do. There's a lot that God can't do:

- He can't do what is logically absurd or contradictory
- He can't do what is contrary to his nature
- He cannot fail to do what he has promised
- He can't interfere with the freedom of man
- He cannot change the past
- It doesn't imply that he uses all of his power all the time in every situation.

Omnipotence mostly means that God can do whatever is possible, and that his power is sufficient to overcome apparently insurmountable problems. He has complete power over nature. He can effect the course of history, though that's not to say he does it all the time. He has the power to change human personality as individuals allow him to. He has the power to conquer death and sin, and to save a human soul for eternity. He has power over the spiritual realm. He can't do everything, but what he chooses to do, he accomplished, for he has the ability to do it.

You're right that free will implies that we have the ability to make a decision of our own accord, but then it's God's *omniscience*, not his omnipotence, that claims that he must know what is going to happen next. But the Bible says that our decisions are very real, and they at times make significant and real changes in what comes next (Jer. 18.1-12).

I agree that before God created the universe he knew 9/11 was going to happen, but that doesn't mean he made it happen. "He did nothing about it." That's right. Now you're invading the problem of "why bad things happen." If God were to interfere in keeping bad things from happening, he would have to take over our bodies to make sure we never stumbled to our harm, never injured another or ourselves, never even gestured hurtfully, and never, well, just about anything. But our bodies are not the only places where harm, hurt, and suffering occur. So God would have to take over all our thoughts, making sure we never miscommunicated, misunderstood, thought a hurtful thought, ... In other words, he would have to crush everything that makes us human and we would all be lifeless, meaningless robots. There would be no love, no kindness, no forgiveness, no mercy, no happiness, no nothing. For us to have true life we must have true choice, and for use to have true choice, God has to give us free will with the risk that many things are going to happen that cause suffering. Since making us all robotic morons is not a reasonable choice, the most logical approach is to make us capable to choice and love, and then for God to do everything necessary to establish a love relationship with us, teach us how to love each other by instruction and example, and make it possible through his own efforts to change us into the kind of people who are not only capable of that but desire it. And that's the story of the Bible.

[Anamata]

God created everything but not some things? If God created the universe he is the cause of everything in it. The reason his knowing what would happen is important because unknowingly doing evil is not the same as knowingly doing it.

[jimwalton]

> God created everything but not some things?

That's right. God created the cosmos and everything that was made. God didn't create evil, though we are capable of evil by our own choices. He didn't create suffering, though we are capable of suffering by virtue of our being less that deity. He didn't create pain, though we are capable of pain, even as a positive warning system, but also as a negative response to harm.

God is the First Cause of the universe, but that doesn't mean he is the causal mechanism of everything. If I can shoot you while you are having a holiday party in your place of business, and then legitimately say, "God did that," then there is no human freedom, no morality, and no accountability. As a matter of fact, we are all meaningless robots. God as First Cause and as continuing cause doesn't mean he is the ultimate and only cause. If I choose to use my hand to slap you rather than hold you, I, not God, have been the causal mechanism of my hand's actions. God's knowledge never implies causality. In the recent violent event in San Bernardino, some neighbors have since indicated that they could tell something was going on. We find that the law establishment even had the shooter on a watchlist. But none of that knowledge translates to causality. Knowledge is passive, not causal. You cannot give me a single example of a time when one being's knowledge caused another being's behavior. For knowledge to become causal it has to combine with some version of power to bring about an effect. By itself, knowledge, even omniscience, has no such power.

[Anamata]

> God is the First Cause of the universe, but that doesn't mean he is the causal mechanism of everything.

Now that is interesting. What is the cause of things that God is not the cause of?

> If I can shoot you while you are having a holiday party in your place of business, and then legitimately say, "God did that," then there is no human freedom, no morality, and no accountability. As a matter of fact, we are all meaningless robots.

Yes, that is the implication of your belief system.

[jimwalton]

> What is the cause of things that God is not the cause of?

God created many other beings in the universe with free will, viz. human beings and other spiritual beings, who therefore also possess the capability to be causal agents independent of God's causality. When I ask you to pass me the salt, and you do, it is not God who is causing the action, but you, motivated by my communication. Human beings are bona fide causal agents in the affairs of life.

> that is the implication of your belief system.

You have it opposite and backwards. Christianity, as a belief system, says that God did not do that, but humans acted with free will in defiance of what God has commanded. In Christianity, as a belief system, there is human freedom, objective morality, and moral accountability. We are significant beings in the image of God, not meaningless robots. That's my belief system.