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What we know about heaven and hell

A question on the afterlife

Postby Insane » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:11 pm

I'd most likely identify myself as a liberal Christian, but I am really questioning the existence of hell. The possible scenarios are:

1. Hell is exactly as evangelical's describe it (non-Christians go there , no second chance). In this scenario, God would be evil, unfair, and unjust (I can elaborate on this if you ask). Free-will would not exist (well, it would be pseudo free-will). It'd be just like saying "Here, pick either of these! Oh but if you're unfortunate enough to pick the wrong thing then you'll be eternally condemned to torture." Also, God would not "win" if this idea of hell was reality.

2. Hell does exist, but non-believers have a second chance (after they die). This is more reasonable, but would anyone really go against God once they recognized His existence? Hell would be pretty much empty.

3. Hell doesn't exist. For those who still went against God after their death, they would not enter heaven, but instead be "outside" of it. Not in hell, not in heaven.

These are pretty much my three different ways of thinking of this (besides neither exist/ God doesn't exist, but that's a different argument). What are your thoughts? Every way seems full of problems.
Insane
 

Re: A question on the afterlife

Postby jimwalton » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:14 pm

You're right that it is hard to think it all through and to really grasp the Bible's teaching on hell, and I think there are more choices than the three you've mentioned, mostly because there are subsets of your categories. Without a doubt there are verses that talk about eternal punishment, but they don't necessarily include all of those who are separated from God. There are verses that talk about God reconciling all things to himself (Rom. 11.15; 2 Cor. 5.19; Col. 1.20), and so some theologians think that God will continue his work of reconciliation even into eternity, such that those who "serve their time" will at a later date be reconciled with God ("reconciliationism"). There is another position called "semi-restorationism" where, after appropriate punishment, those who desire a relationship with God will be partially restored, and those who do not, even after punishment, will opt to remain separated. The point is that, consistent with everything else the Bible teaches, a person's relegation to hell will be something the person will choose ("I don't WANT to be with God!") rather than a destination forced upon one against their will. While the Bible speaks about eternity, possibly only those who stay eternally defiant will be eternally punished. Some even believe in annihilation. It's hard to know.

I happen to be convinced hell is not literally fire, but the agony of true separation from God. I say that because fire doesn't have degrees of punishment, but hell does. Degrees of separation makes more sense to me than degrees of being burned. I believe hell is degrees of punishment, based on the sin (though not levels of hell, as in Dante). Here's my proof:

Mt. 11.22-24 – “more tolerable”
Mt. 23.14 – “greater condemnation”
Rev. 20.13 – “each in proportion to his works”
Lk. 10.12 – “it will be more bearable for Sodom than for that town”
Lk. 12.47-48 – beaten with few blows or more blows

My bottom line is this: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances.
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Re: A question on the afterlife

Postby Insane » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:04 pm

Good points. Do you think those that were unfortunate enough to not be born in a Christian family (pretty much the main determiner of someone's faith) will have to face this temporary separation from God? Or do you believe someone that was born in a Muslim environment and lived his entire life as a devout Muslim will be able to enter heaven immediately after his death and his recognition of the Christian God?
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Re: A question on the afterlife

Postby jimwalton » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:44 pm

That's a great question, but it's too general to answer with any kind of confidence. Being a devout Muslim, he will have been taught all about Isa (Jesus) as a powerful prophet, born of a virgin, a miracle worker like no other prophet in Islam (including Mohammad himself). Muslims believe that Jesus will one day return to earth to restore justice. Muslims also believe that the gospels are holy, and Islam recognizes the Gospels as Scripture. Problematically, they then reject the Gospels as Scripture because, according to Muslim theology, the gospels have been mistranslated and are no longer reliable. So are the gospels sacred or aren' they? The Qur'anic stories of Jesus contradict the Bible's stories of Jesus.

I have heard reports of many millions of Muslims turning to Isa (some secretly for fear of persecution). I was in Bangladesh 10 months ago and witnessed some of it myself. I have read in magazines some reports about conversions to Christianity in the Middle East. Some of those believers retain their identity as Muslims and call themselves Isahi: Jesus followers. But they no longer follow the Qur'an, but the Bible (since the two contradict at many points).

So here's my opinion: I do not believe that someone who is a devout Muslim will be able to enter heaven when he sees Isa and recognizes him. They will have still trusted their belief in a false God (one that does not recognize the deity of Jesus) and a false system of salvation (salvation by works). That's my opinion, but I love discussing these things with Muslims and Christians alike, and feel like I learn something every time I have a good discussion, so feel free to talk more about it. I can even ask some Muslim friends!


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