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How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Yo Rick » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:00 am

Quick query: How come God is OK with rape? I can't remember the exact chapter and verse, and pretty sure it happens more than once, but in the old testament God commands the Israelites to attack a city, kill all the men, boys, and "women who have known a man" (or some euphemism) but to take all the virgin women for themselves.

So.... yeah, god commanded the rape of a city full of women... isn't that morally reprehensible?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:07 am

Yeah, you have an imagination not fitting what the Bible teaches, and you haven't really looked into the text(s). God is not OK with rape; he's never OK with rape, and never commanded the rape of a city full of women. That would be morally reprehensible, and what you are querying about just isn't so.

You're probably thinking of Numbers 31. Let's really look at it responsibly.

1. It is quite clear and obvious that nothing is said in the text about rape. The word doesn't appear, the concept doesn't appear, and any reading into the text the concept of rape is exactly that: reading in something that isn't there.

Here's what the text (Numbers 31.18) actually says:

1. "Save": Any female who was still virginal could be spared.

2. "For yourselves": There is nothing in this term even implying sexual pleasure. In a *herem* situation in ancient Israel, all plunder was considered to be the possession of God, for the praise of his name and the benefit of the whole community. In Deuteronomy 21.10-14 it is explicitly against Israelite law for an Israelite soldier to use a female POW as a sex object. An Israelite male had to carefully follow proper procedures before she could be taken as a wife. In light the highly sensitive nature of sexual purity in Israel and for Israel's soldiers, specific protocols had to be followed. Rape was most certainly excluded as an extracurricular activity in warfare.

3. "Every girl": The term is used frequently in military contexts where the "little children" are to be protected or taken as spoils of war—a specific stipulation of the Law (Dt. 20.14).

4. "who has never slept with a man": The accusation that these girls were for sex slave purposes has no foundation in the text and contradicts what we know about the culture and about the event.

a. Girls were generally married off at puberty, roughly 12-14 years old. Pedophilia is unknown in ancient Israel. Children were taken into homes to be part of the economic assets of the household.

b. Unlike the Greeks and Romans, the ancient Near East was not very "into" using slaves/captives for sexual purposes. Their owners used them primarily for spinning and weaving.

c. Thee Israelites, in particular, believed in marital fidelity for both husband and wife.

d. Deuteronomy specifies the course of treatment for these girls: they were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].) Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. This incident is hardly an expression of "raping women enslaved by warfare."

So, no, God never commanded the rape of a city full of women. That would be morally reprehensible. You just have your facts wrong and haven't done your homework, so I'm glad you asked. God is not OK with rape.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Dominator » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:02 pm

Did the women consent to the marriage?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:09 pm

If we are going strictly by the text, it's obvious that it doesn't say. There's nothing in the text about force, but neither is there anything in the text about consent. In those days of arranged marriages, it's my understanding that the women never (or rarely) gave consent. They were given by their parents to another. The women never expected to be in that position where they would be asked what they thought. But that's just the cultural context; Numbers 31 doesn't say.

In another sense, since we know that Deuteronomy 21.10-14 stipulates explicitly that it is against Israelite law for an Israelite soldier to use a female POW as a sex object, some semblance of consent is implicit in the arrangement. But again, that's implied, not stated.

Since rape was forbidden for Israelite soldiers, and Dt. 21.10-14 is clear what process had to be undertaken to bring a wife into the home from among the captives, and since Numbers 31 makes absolutely no mention of rape or coercion, my interpretation is more reasonable than the "God commands rape" assumption.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Dominator » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:13 pm

Well let's get a little more explicit since common sense doesn't ever trump preconcieved doctrine:

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes. (Judges 21:10-24)

Consent or no?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:20 pm

Thank you for bringing this text up. You'll notice in this text that God never commands what they do, and he never endorses it. Judges 21 is a dreadful and dark picture of sin and disobedience. In the book of Judges things just go from bad to worse. Even though they sit before the Lord (21.5), there is no word from the Lord, no command to what they should do. They come up with their own plan, and not a good one at that. They slaughter the people of Jabesh Gilead. Then they devise a plan of kidnapping. God has nothing to do with this fiasco. Notice how the story ends (v. 25): "Everyone did as they saw fit."

So the answer to your question is No, no consent. But this certainly doesn't support the contention that God is OK with rape. Not in the least.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby J Lord » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:24 pm

> and never commanded the rape of a city full of women. That would be morally reprehensible

Are you saying that it would be morally reprehensible even for God to do such a thing?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:26 pm

Yep. Absolutely. Affirmative. Yes. Agreed. Indeed. It would be morally reprehensible for God to command rape.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Mark Evens » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:32 pm

This is the kind of things that really gets me. The hoops people jump through to convince yourself that, "Kill everyone but the virgin girls, those you keep for yourself," doesn't mean something you don't want it to is astonishing.

Let's face it, in the days and age this was written this kind of thing was not uncommon in tribal warfare; Kill everyone except for the virgin girls because they are part of the prize.

I don't think God ordered the slaughter and rape of a city because God doesn't exist and this is just the cultural myth the Israelites told themselves about their past, but in that story God is clearly ordering the slaughter and rape of a city.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:33 pm

No, no, you can't just assume "keep for yourself" is warfare rape. Talk about making hoops of your own bias! Let's be both clear and fair:

The text says nothing about rape.
The text says nothing about coercion.
The text says nothing about sex.

If you see rape in there, you are putting it there.

"Let's face it, in the days and age this was written this kind of thing was not uncommon in tribal warfare." This is true, but you are not taking into account that Israelite law specifically forbade them to be like the other nations. Deuteronomy 21.10-14 outlines their rules about treatment of women captives, and it is explicitly against Israelite law for an Israelite soldier to use a female POW as a sex object. No hoops, just fact. If we're going to stick with the facts, then let's stick with the facts, and your interpretation is inserting into the text what is not there.

Then you bring up the existence of God, which is a completely different discussion. Suffice it to say (and regardless of your belief that this is mythological), in that story God never orders the rape of women. Prove it from the text if that's your argument; don't just make assumptions, interject an interpretation of your own making and call it truth.
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