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How do we know there's a God? What is he like?

Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Mark Evens » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:47 pm

What exactly do you think they were saving those virgin girls for? To keep them virgins? And if you read the Bible, you'd know that Israelite law didn't mean much to Israelites, especially when you have passages like this that support slaughter and rape.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:48 pm

They were saving those girls for marriage. Marriage, not for sexual abuse. The Deuteronomy 21.10-14 text makes that explicitly clear.

And while the Israelites were only so-so at keeping the law, it is clear that the law did not support rape, nor did God command rape.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby J Lord » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:52 pm

Would it also be morally reprehensible for God to command torture? What about killing innocent people?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:52 pm

Those are different questions. Now you're getting off the topic of rape that was originally posted, but I don't mind answering your question. It would also be morally reprehensible to God to command torture as well as the killing of innocent people.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Dominator » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:16 pm

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.” (Deuteronomy 21:10)

Consent?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:17 pm

It doesn't say, by my reading. It doesn't say she was coerced with rape (more than a month has expired), nor does it tell us about her attitude or decisions. If we're going to go by what the Bible says, it doesn't say. So you can't conclude "rape."

The verb in Dt. 21.14 is *'innitah,* speaking of the humiliation a woman would feel having been compelled to accompany the solider to his home, brought back for marriage and then rejected.

Dr. Daniel Block adds, "For women, few circumstances are more fearful than the conquest of their towns by a foreign army. This ordinance was designed to rein in the potential for male abuse of women in such contexts. This paragraph serves not as a legal provision for a soldier to marry a woman in circumstances where contractual arrangements with the bride’s family are impossible, nor as an authorization of divorce from a foreign bride—both practices are assumed—but as an appeal to Israelites to be charitable in their treatment of foreign women, who, through no decision or fault of their own, are forced to become a part of the Israelite community. Verses 10-13 call for the charitable treatment of foreign brides when they are first taken; verse 14 for their charitable treatment in divorce."
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Over There » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Way to be selective about what you read in numbers 31. Let's visit the rest of what it says:

27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

So the spoils are to be divided. Let's look at what's in the spoils:

³² The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, ³³ 72,000 cattle, ³⁴ 61,000 donkeys ³⁵ and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

The virgins here are a part of the "spoils".

³⁶ The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep, ³⁷ of which the tribute for the Lord was 675; ³⁸ 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72; ³⁹ 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61; ⁴⁰ 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32. ⁴¹ Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses.

At least the Lord got 32 of those virgins, so maybe they won't be forced into marriage and raped.

53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself.

Each soldier gets a woman and the other women go to the Levites. What exactly do you think these men wanted with virgins?

Let's also take a look at Deuteronomy 21:10-14:
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

So after you slaughter this poor girl's family, you can take her as your wife. You just first need to let her grieve for her family that you killed, of course. I'm sure a woman would love to consent to marrying the person who murdered her family (out of fear of her own life). And if she doesn't "please" you, you have to let her go. How kind.

Exodus 21:7-11 shows us how to handle girls who were sold into slavery by their fathers:
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[a] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

So if she doesn't "please" her master, he can marry her to his son.

Even if you think that somehow none of that is rape (which is an incredible feat of mental gymnastics), let's look at how rape is punished in Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.
So if a man seizes a virgin, rapes and violates her, the man is forced into marrying the woman. Can you imagine a woman wanting to marry her rapist?
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:32 pm

It's astounding how you have read "rape" into these texts where no such thing is mentioned. Show me one, ONE usage of the word. Just one will seal your case. Without one, you have no case except inference, which other texts prove is an illegitimate and unwarranted inference.

So I read the rest of Numbers 31. Yes, the virgins are part of the spoils. At what point do you assume rape, since nothing of the sort is mentioned, let alone commanded?

> At least the Lord got 32 of those virgins, so maybe they won't be forced into marriage and raped.

There you go again. Where does the text say anything about rape? They were brought back for marriage. As Dt. 21 says, after a month of mourning and cleansing, she is taken as a WIFE. You just can't read into the text what you want it to say.

> So after you slaughter this poor girl's family, you can take her as your wife. You just first need to let her grieve for her family that you killed, of course. I'm sure a woman would love to consent to marrying the person who murdered her family (out of fear of her own life). And if she doesn't "please" you, you have to let her go. How kind.

You're misunderstanding it. You may not think it was kind, but it certainly wasn't rape. Dr. Daniel Block comments on this text: "For women, few circumstances are more fearful than the conquest of their towns by a foreign army. This ordinance was designed to rein in the potential for male abuse of women in such contexts. This paragraph serves not as a legal provision for a soldier to marry a woman in circumstances where contractual arrangements with the bride’s family are impossible, nor as an authorization of divorce from a foreign bride—both practices are assumed—but as an appeal to Israelites to be charitable in their treatment of foreign women, who, through no decision or fault of their own, are forced to become a part of the Israelite community. Verses 10-13 call for the charitable treatment of foreign brides when they are first taken; verse 14 for their charitable treatment in divorce."

> Exodus 21

This text has nothing to do with rape. I wish people would read more responsibly. This section is about marriage. In days of arranged marriages, daughters would be given in return for a dowry. Marriage was as much an economic arrangement as a social one. You'll notice here that the sale of a daughter into slavery is a marriage arrangement as a way of paying off a debt. As a way to protect those in poverty, and to protect the rights of the woman given to a man with this understanding, the debt would be liquidated, the daughter would have a husband, and he must treat her properly. You see in Ex. 21.8 that if the man is not pleased with her, he can't just dump her or abuse her, but must let her be redeemed by someone else in proper, legal form. If he passes her on to his son (v. 9), she becomes a daughter, not a slave. Verse 10 speaks of provision of food, clothing, and marital rights. If he falters on any of these points, she is free to go (11). There is nothing about this that is brutal.

> Deuteronomy 22:28-29

The law is designed to protect the girl's honor and assure her of permanent support. On first reading, this seems sexist. Why does she have to marry him? Because in their culture the unmarried rape victim would not only have to deal with the trauma of the violent act itself, but she would also be stigmatized by the loss of her virginity. Because of her shame, she would be unable to marry (cf. 2 Sam. 13.1-20—a victimized woman did not think it was sexist to marry her rapist). Since the primary way women achieved financial and societal security was through marriage, a rape victim would often end up impoverished. This law is actually attempting to correct a problem in their sexist environment. It was providing security and protection for the woman—the innocent victim.

A hasty conclusion that YHWH’s command here is sexist reveals an ignorance of their culture. As the story of Tamar shows (2 Sam. 13.1-120), a woman victimized by rape in that context would view marriage as a necessity. A law commanding the marriage of a rapist and his victim is inconceivable today, but in the time of Tamar, it was a good thing for the woman. By giving the command, God was not being sexist, but rather was combating the sexism of the culture.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby Pointy Head » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:36 pm

Thats all well and good, but at tbe end of the day a girl is being forced to marry someone aganst their will. Since that would undoubtedly involve sex, it's rape. It's even more reprehensible because it likely involved someone who participated in the murder of her family. Since god commanded or at least endorsed keeping the virgins for themselves, he kinda did endorse rape. A lot of it.
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Re: How come God is OK with rape?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:38 pm

You're reading into the text what isn't there, and therefore your analysis and conclusion both fail. Where does the text says it's against her will? Where is there any notion that she is being forced? Not in the text, but just in your reading of it, so you can't support your case with that. Those were the days of arranged marriages. The women never had say in whom they were partnered with. They were given in marriage. A woman in 1300 BC wouldn't be thinking of her will. Marriage a social arrangement, not a romantic one. There's nothing reprehensible about this scenario except your anachronistic reading of it, reading modern thinking processes and social customs into the ancient world. It's just not valid.

Of course God endorsed the keeping of virgins for themselves. But it was for legitimate marriage, not to endorse rape.
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