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[Heart of Gold]

For what reason would the creator of the universe want to segregate and discriminate against people? It's clear in reading the Bible that God took sides in conflicts and broke groups down by their ethnic regions and beliefs. He willingly interfered in battles and instructed on things like enslavement of certain peoples and non-enslavement of other and even instructed on the distribution of war spoils.

He set special rules and protections for some ethnicities while leaving others completely ignored. Consider those living in other areas of the globe such as the Far East and the West.

When you look at how humans act toward each other and compare this to the unimaginable power and knowledge of any creator, why does the God of the Bible behave and instruct like a short-sighted human being and not like an all-knowing all-loving God?

[jimwalton]

You've misunderstood both God and the Scriptures. First, a couple of theological facts:

2 Peter 3.9: "The Lord is...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." He has no discrimination against any ethnicities or people groups.

Acts 10:34: "God does not show favoritism."

And thirdly, Genesis 12:3: "All peoples on earth will be blessed through you." It is God's intention to bless all people on the earth (though some will refuse his offer).

"God took sides in conflicts." Yes, he absolutely did. There are several reasons for that. (1) Being a just general of the armies, so to speak, he fought on the side of right and against evil; (2) Being a just judge, he advocated for the righteous and against the wicked; and (3) Having promised to protect his children, he acted the part of the mother bear. He will leave you alone, but if you attack his children, beware his wrath.

"He broke groups down by their ethnic regions." In a world before nation states, before feudal territories, and before city states, there were regions characterized by clan, or ethnicity. It's no more discriminatory to identify the citizens of Jerusalem as Jebusites than it is to speak of the residents of a certain congressional district as African-Americans.

"He willingly interfered in battles." Yes. In the Bible, God was the leader of his people, and one of the ways this showed itself was that he was the commander-in-chief of the armies, the strategist in the battle, and the one to be credited with the victory. On numerous occasions YHWH shows himself to be a formidable general. He was, as I said earlier, fighting on the side of right and against evil.

"He instructed on things like enslavement." Yes he did, but he never commanded it or endorsed it. He just said, "If you're going to do this, treat people with the dignity and rights due to human beings and not like things." In those days, slavery was a very different institution (not even a good descriptor for what they did) than it was in ancient Greece, Rome, or in Europe/US during the colonial era. It was most debt "slavery." Our term for it is "employment."

"Even instructed on the distribution of war spoils." Yes. In the ancient world, most soldiers didn't get paid. Their "salary" was the spoils of war. Whatever they could take was theirs. With the Israelites it was different. All war spoils belonged to the Lord (after all, he was the true victor). Israelite treatment of war spoils was radically different than that of the surrounding nations.

"He set special rules and protections for some ethnicities while leaving others completely ignored." He set special rules and protections for his people. That's all his rules apply to. Everyone else was welcomed to become part of his people. It was an open invitation.

"Why does the God of the Bible behave and instruct like a short-sighted human being and not like an all-knowing all-loving God?" He doesn't at all. He acts with power and fairness, and he expects his people to be different from all other nations.

[Heart of Gold]

Pointing to passages that directly contradict others doesn't help your case. Those passages are counter to the actions of the biblical God and that's my point. Just because those passages exist doesn't relieve God from the obvious acts of discrimination He took... and you agree to.
You've not changed any of the discrimination, you've actually reinforced it.

[jimwalton]

The Bible passages don't directly contradict each other at all, nor do they go against biblical theology. The only thing they contradict is your opinion about God, and I was glad to do that.

Maybe it depends how you are defining "discrimination." If it's "making a distinction," yes, God did that and I see no problem with it. If it's "favoring one people over another for a specific and warranted reason," yes God did that and I see no problem with it. If it's "favoring one people over another unfairly or on the basis of bigotry or intolerance," no, God didn't do that, but that seems to be of what you are accusing him. So perhaps you need to clarify of what, exactly, you are accusing God.

[Heart of Gold]

Ordering a specific group of people killed (including the innocent) because of their origins is bigotry and intolerance and genocidal. And the passages you noted do run counter to genocidal behavior.

[jimwalton]

I'm glad you mentioned these specifics. These are quite a different question than God "segregating" and "discriminating."

God didn't order a specific group of people killed, as in genocide. If you're talking about the Canaanites, God's first desire is that they should repent and become part of Israel (Rahab did this in Joshua 2-6; Deut. 20.10—offer them peace; Gn. 12.3—that *all* the nations be blessed through him). His second desire, if they wouldn't surrender, was to be driven from the land (Ex. 23.28-31, and many subsequent places). Genocide was not the plan.

What God had against the Canaanites was nothing about their ethnic origins or that they were a specific group of people, but their false religious practices (Deut. 7.5-6). There was no discrimination, bigotry, or genocide against their ethnicity, but only judgment for perpetuating lies and ruining lives. That's what had to be stopped.

Also, the accusation against God (and the Israelites) of "genocide" is a faulty accusation. I have an article that I posted here for another person who had the same misunderstanding. (I've actually posted it many times, because the misunderstandings about it just linger, and come back, and seem to have a life of their own.) I would be glad to repost it for you if you so desire. Let me know.

[The Righteous One]

> It's clear in reading the Bible that God ... broke groups down by their ethnic regions and beliefs.

He refers to nations as a whole. A nation typically has a particular culture. Those in a nation often have similar religious beliefs (i.e. they all worship the same god(s)).

(Side comment: As a counter-example to your phrase 'ethnic regions', He also refers to empires, such as the Babylonians or Assyrians, which included a variety of component nations/ethnicities and religions)

> It's clear in reading the Bible that God took sides in conflicts

Yes. Repeatedly in the Bible, God could see that a nation was replete with sinful behavior, and He chose to bring judgment on that nation.

He then used one nation against another (e.g. He commanded the Israelites to take out or expel the several nations that were in the Canaan region; He later arranged for the Babylonians to punish the sinful Israelites; He later used the Assyrians against the Israelites likewise).

> He willingly interfered in battles and instructed on things like enslavement of certain peoples and non-enslavement of other(s)

Yes, He was accomplishing his goals of bringing judgment on the sinful members of a nation.

> He set special rules and protections for some ethnicities

I see nothing wrong with that - treating nations differently based on their particular characteristics or history.

> while leaving others completely ignored. Consider those living in other areas of the globe such as the Far East and the West.

Once God chose Abraham in the Middle East, then the story focuses on the nations that came from him, especially the nation of Israel, out of which one person was the Christ through whom all nations would be blessed.

The further places (e.g. Ethiopia) are rarely mentioned, and the places even further (e.g. the Far East) are not mentioned at all, because they are not relevant to the story. The fact that they are not in this story doesn't show that God didn't also interact with people at times in those other regions.

> why does the God of the Bible behave and instruct like a short-sighted human being and not like an all-knowing all-loving God?

I don't think He has acted like a short-sighted human. He has acted like an all-knowing judge, bringing judgments on a national scale and influencing the course of human history towards his goals, on the scale of centuries and millenia.

[Heart of Gold]

Well, here's the thing, killing a group of people because of religious beliefs, false or otherwise, is still genocide. Asking them to switch to other 'correct' beliefs and using their failure to do this as justification does not relieve the killer from their crime.

Also, where was their free will in this scenario? And you mentioned that it wasn't part of the plan... doesn't God know all, past, present and future? Wouldn't He know what would happen to this group that was killed on His word?

[jimwalton]

As I mentioned, genocide was not what was happening. A study of the ancient world reveals very clearly that genocide was their warfare rhetoric, but not their warfare practice. When God talks about "kill them all," it's their cultural way of saying, "Win a decisive victory." There are many ancient examples of this. Genocide was never intended, and genocide was not done. So God is not telling the Israelites to kill off all the Canaanites. It's just not true, so you need to correct your assumptions.

Secondly, you seem to think that religious beliefs are just a matter of opinion, so people should have the free will to be able to choose and "live and let live." What is happening instead is that there really are consequences in the real world for religious beliefs, and the God who is really there knows that false religious beliefs are destructive in this life and even more so in the next. He knows that false religious beliefs, far from being mere differences of opinion, are life-ruining, and the consequences are severe. So His first order of business is to offer the Canaanites a part in the covenant, which they rejected by their free will. Then he offered them a chance to leave the area, by their own free will, so they wouldn't be an influence for evil on good people. When by their own free will they chose to stay and fight, then they reap the consequences of their own choices. That's where free will is in this scenario.

[Heart of Gold]

God is clearly separating people by groups (which goes directly to my original question of discrimination) and then calling for their killing (which by ALL definitions) is genocide. Trying to re-wrap it as a misunderstanding ignores the actual facts and is simply apologetics.

Would you accept the same mental contortions from a Muslim who tries to reengineer the definition of 'pedophilia' to exclude Mohamed?

My initial question asked why the creator of the universe would even need to partake in such petty human crimes and prejudice in dealing with His own creation and your argument only deepens the mystery because you look to justify those barbaric acts. Wouldn't the creator be able to correct things without killing and discriminating?

And we still have the problem of God suspending free will because He killed those who exercised their free will. Therefore they do not have true free will.