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[Great King of Heaven]

There is no way to guarantee that everything that you think that you experience is not a lie sent by YHVH.

You may say, "YHVH does not lie."

To this, I say "2 Thessalonians 2:11 speaks about YHVH sending strong delusions upon people. What could be a stronger delusion than sending false revelations that you believe to be true about everything that you think is happening?"

You may say, "The whole passage is about YHVH sending strong delusions upon people who do not believe in him. YHVH does not send strong delusions upon people who believe in him for whatever reason."

To this, I say, "Matthew 19:26 says: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matthew 19:26 does not say with God all things are possible except for sending strong delusions upon people who believe in him."

You may say, "Jesus said that he was the truth. Surely this means that those who believe in him will not be led astray by strong delusions from YHVH."

To this, I say, "Matthew 19:26 does not have Jesus saying that "with God all things are possible except for sending strong delusions upon people who believe in me as the truth.""

You may say, "As a non-Christian, you are incapable of interpreting the bible properly. I am a true Christian, guided by the Bible and YHVH's spirit, and my interpretation differs from yours in excluding the possibility of YHVH deceiving true Christians."

To this, I say, "Again, since YHVH is, according to the Bible, capable of doing anything, you are placing limits upon what YHVH can do."

You might say, "The Bible nowhere teaches that YHVH will send delusions upon true Christians."

To this, I say, "If YHVH were to reveal that he will send delusions upon true Christians, his deceptions would be more easily exposed. By not revealing that he will, he allows the deception to be stronger."

You might say, "Surely this sort of thing is so important that the Bible would reveal it."

To this I say, "The Bible does not reveal everything, even when it could. Take PI. 1 Kings 7:23 strongly suggests that PI = 3. There are those who say that this is not meant to be precise but an approximation, or that the value is explained by the measurements being based upon different portions of the rim, but regardless, this would have been an excellent place for YHVH to reveal that PI is certainly greater than 3, regardless of what the bowl's measurements might have been. But YHVH did not. This means that the Bible does not reveal everything, even when its revelation would be useful. How much more justified would concealing the fact that YHVH sends delusions upon true Christians be? To reveal such a thing outright, after all, would weaken YHVH's deceptive power."

You may say, "But the revelation that I feel seems exactly like the Bible defined true revelations."

To this I say, "Since all things are possible with YHVH, you cannot say that YHVH would not send false revelations to you that seem exactly like true revelations. What, after all would be a stronger delusion than a delusion that seems exactly like a true revelation from YHVH."

You may say, "Your argument depends upon logic, which depends upon YHVH's being real as Christians define him."

To this, I say, "For the sake of this latest question from you, let it be assumed that what you say is true. This is still no guarantee that YHVH is not sending false revelations to everyone. After all, since the bible say that "with god, all things are possible", this includes the possibility that YHVH is sending false revelations to everyone."

You may say, "I understand YHVH enough to know that he would never lie to me."

To this, I say, "The Bible says "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16). By claiming to understand YHVH enough to know that he would never lie to you, you are claiming to be able to understand his ways and know his mind, which the Bible says is impossible. Besides, since, as the Bible says, everything is possible for God, this includes the possibility of doing something that is contrary to what people who understand him (or think that they understand him) think that he will do - including sending false revelations to true Christians that are so all-encompassing that everything that you think that you experience is a lie sent by YHVH."

[jimwalton]

You've read all the words and missed all the point. This part of 2 Thessalonians is to correct misunderstandings about Jesus's return (vv. 1-2). To that end, it is particularly about the final rebellion against God in the last days—the End Times (vv. 3-12). Paul is encouraging the Christians who are being persecuted not to despair, because God's ultimate triumph over evil is certain. It's a no-brainer.

Verse 6 is the important point: For now God is holding the Great Deceiver back, but at the right time of eschatological fulfillment, God will take off his chains and let him have at humanity. This is what verse 11 is about, not that God is a liar.

Some of his points:

- Don't let anyone deceive you (v. 3). Only believe the truth from God (an important point considering your interpretation of v. 11).
- The Deceiver himself will be in the mix, leading many astray (another important point re: v. 11. The "man of lawlessness" is the deceiver).
- Deceit is always part of the spiritual picture, but there will be a time when the Great Deceiver is not restrained by the merciful hand of God (v. 7).
- Believers are not to worry. At the right time, Jesus will dispose of the Great Deceiver (v. 8). Christians can hold strong to their faith.
- Despite the miracle-working power of the Great Deceiver, Christians should resist being misled (v. 9). Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along (v. 11).

Now let's deal with your specific objections:

> What could be a stronger delusion than sending false revelations that you believe to be true about everything that you think is happening?"

God is not sending false revelations. This is contrary to the context, the grammar, the terminology, and the intent of the text.

> You may say, "The whole passage is about YHVH sending strong delusions upon people who do not believe in him.

No, that's not what it's about at all.

> Matthew 19:26

Therefore this verse is irrelevant to 2 Thes. 2. And in any case, in Mt. 19.26, "all things are possible" has to be taken in stride. For instance, it's not possible for God to stop being God, so we have to understand some kind of textual parameters to the saying.

> capable of doing anything, you are placing limits upon what YHVH can do."

There are many things YHWH cannot do: He cannot sin, He cannot act against His nature, He cannot be self-contradictory. When we say God is omnipotent, we don't mean He's absurd.

We'll start with these and hopefully enjoy a good discussion.

[Great King of Heaven]

But since you admit that some people have been predestined by YHVH to believe strong delusions sent by YHVH, you admit that YHVH sents strong delusions. How can you know that YHVH has not predestined you to believe another, even stronger delusion - namely, everything that you experience within life?

[jimwalton]

This is an interesting reply. I didn't admit that some people have been predestined by YHWH to believe strong delusions sent by YHWH. I actually said nothing of the sort. And therefore I didn't admit (and would not have) that YHWH sent strong delusions.

> How can you know that YHVH has not predestined you to believe another, even stronger delusion - namely, everything that you experience within life?

Because there is no evidence that YHWH predestinespeople to believe delusions. I don't know where you got this idea, but it's not biblical. If you can point to a text where YHWH predestines people to believe delusions, I'll be very glad to talk with you about it.

[Great King of Heaven]

I thought that the phrase "Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along" would be best explained as "Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been [pre]determined [by YHVH] to believe all along".

After all, Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The letters (2 Thessalians and Romans) were both written by Paul. Or are you saying that Paul changed his mind or contradicts himself? Or do you think that Paul should not be used to understand Paul?

[jimwalton]

> They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along

Ah, I see the problem now. You thought by "determined" I was implying "predestined by God." OK, what I was saying was, "They will only receive the lies they've been steadfastly obstinate in believing all along." In other words, these were people who had already decided on their own to rebel, and to not believe anything God said no matter what. That's what I meant by "determined." They were resolute in their rebellion.

> Romans 8.29-30

Yeah, this verse has nothing to do with, and says absolutely nothing about, God predestining people to believe strong delusions about God.

> Romans 9.18

The point of Paul's saying in verse 18 is found in Romans 9.16: "It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy." One doesn't inherit salvation because one is a Jew, an American, a white male, rich, smart, or good. Salvation comes by grace through faith.

Then we are given the example of Pharaoh, a man who had hardened his own heart long before God started dealing with him, giving Pharaoh what Pharaoh had already decided (just like here in 2 Thes. 2). Paul is very consistent.

Pharaoh reveals a hard heart from the starting line towards the people of Israel (Ex. 1.11-22). Pharaoh also shows a hard heart towards God in Ex. 5.2. Exodus 7.13 says Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them. Exodus 7.14 says Pharaoh's heart was unyielding. Exodus 7.22 says Pharaoh's heart became hard. Exodus 8.15 says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh is said to have hardened his own heart in 8.32. And THEN we read that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. When the text says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means He let Pharaoh pursue the course Pharaoh had already decided to pursue, which is what Romans 9.18 is about. God knows when it is no longer possible to turn someone around. After expending every possible effort and extending mercy, He knows when the effort is fruitless and without hope, and he walks away, leaving people to their own demise.

> The letters (2 Thessalians and Romans) were both written by Paul. Or are you saying that Paul changed his mind or contradicts himself? Or do you think that Paul should not be used to understand Paul?

As you can see that I've explained, Romans and Thessalonians don't contradict, nor do they contradict with the story of Pharaoh in Exodus. It's all consistent. Paul didn't change his mind, nor did he contradict himself.

> Or do you think that Paul should not be used to understand Paul?

We are safe to use Paul to understand Paul.

[Great King of Heaven]

But Pharoah's heart had softened before YHVH hardened it again.

My basic point is that once you admit that YHVH your god is omnipotent and capable of sending strong delusions and beyond human comprehension, you have no way to rule out that YHVH is using his omnipotence to delude you about everything. To claim this would involve claiming that YHVH is comprehensible by humans and/or not omnipotent.

Predestination, although a logical development from YHVH's omniscience, is not essential to this argument. Rather, I thought that you were applying predestination to my argument.

[jimwalton]

> But Pharoah's heart had softened before YHVH hardened it again.

I'm sure exactly what you're talking about, since you didn't explain.

I have already shown you that Pharaoh had hardened his own heart (Ex. 1.11-22; 5.2; 7.13, 14, 22). Then I notice that Pharaoh softened his own heart (Ex. 8.9), and then he hardened his own heart again almost right away in Ex. 8.15. So you'll have to explain yourself.

> My basic point is that once you admit that YHVH your god is omnipotent and capable of sending strong delusions and beyond human comprehension,

And I never admitted this, and never would. This is what I have been telling you all along is false. The Bible doesn't teach this. God is not capable of lying or sending strong delusions. "Omnipotence" doesn't cover God being able to be self-contradictory. It's logically and theologically absurd and untenable.

[Great King of Heaven]

On what ground do you deny that YHVH is not capable of sending strong delusions? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". Are you denying that 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is true?

There are many verses within the Bible that say that YHVH hardened pharaoh's heart - they in fact outnumber verses saying that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

- And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
- And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3
- And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13
- And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12
- And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1
- But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20
- But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27
- And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10
- And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4
- And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8
- I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

In contrast, these are the verses saying the opposite:

- But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
- And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32
- And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34
- Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Why do you choose the tradition that is represented by the lesser number of verses, especially when this tradition would limit YHVH's omnipotence?

[jimwalton]

> On what ground do you deny that YHVH is not capable of sending strong delusions?

I explained this thoroughly and at length in my first post reply to you. I'm surprised that you ask this question as if I haven't said a thing. What I said was, "This part of 2 Thessalonians is to correct misunderstandings about Jesus's return (vv. 1-2). To that end, it is particularly about the final rebellion against God in the last days—the End Times (vv. 3-12). Paul is encouraging the Christians who are being persecuted not to despair, because God's ultimate triumph over evil is certain. It's a no-brainer.

Verse 6 is the important point: For now God is holding the Great Deceiver back, but at the right time of eschatological fulfillment, God will take off his chains and let him have at humanity. This is what verse 11 is about, not that God is a liar.

Some of his points:

* Don't let anyone deceive you (v. 3). Only believe the truth from God (an important point considering your interpretation of v. 11).
* The Deceiver himself will be in the mix, leading many astray (another important point re: v. 11. The "man of lawlessness" is the deceiver).
* Deceit is always part of the spiritual picture, but there will be a time when the Great Deceiver is not restrained by the merciful hand of God (v. 7).
* Believers are not to worry. At the right time, Jesus will dispose of the Great Deceiver (v. 8). Christians can hold strong to their faith.
* Despite the miracle-working power of the Great Deceiver, Christians should resist being misled (v. 9). Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along (v. 11).

In other words, as I said to you, "God is not sending false revelations. This is contrary to the context, the grammar, the terminology, and the intent of the text."

> 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". Are you denying that 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is true?

I'm not denying it's true. I'm repudiating the false interpretation you are giving it by a superficial reading that ignores the context and the meaning of it.

> There are many verses within the Bible that say that YHVH hardened pharaoh's heart - they in fact outnumber verses saying that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

The quantity of verses doesn't matter. What matters is what they mean. I have clearly shown that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" only after Pharaoh had hardened it himself. In other words, as I've already said, "When the text says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means He let Pharaoh pursue the course Pharaoh had already decided to pursue, which is what Romans 9.18 is about. God knows when it is no longer possible to turn someone around. After expending every possible effort and extending mercy, He knows when the effort is fruitless and without hope, and he walks away, leaving people to their own demise."

There are other possible factors, however, that help to explain what was happening here. The first of those is that the Egyptians believed, as we do, that judgment took place in the afterlife. The Book of the Dead mentions a scene where the heart of the dead person is weighed on a scale to see if it’s heavier than a feather. This is how the Egyptians' envision whether they lived a good life or a bad one—whether they lived right and wrong. If the heart is lighter than a feather, then the dead person is granted favor. If it is heavy their soul will be consumed. What makes sense of this is that the biblical expressions about a "hard" or "strong" heart are actually about a heavy heart. Same concept. Each time his heart is hard, it grows heavier. What this means is that when the text says God was making Pharaoh’s heart hard, God wasn’t making him more resistant but showing that Pharaoh was more guilty. The conclusion is that God wasn’t making Pharaoh obstinate, but that YHWH is judging the Pharaoh as guilty, even though ancient Egyptians believed their king could do no wrong. God is not being unfair to Pharaoh and then punishing him for it. It’s just that at every turn, as Pharaoh resisted the works of God over and over, God was affirming that Pharaoh was more guilty.

But there’s still another possibility. "Heavy-hearted" (or hard hearted) is also an Egyptian expression meaning that a person has great self-control and is able to refrain from speaking rashly. Our expression for it would be "level-headed;" theirs was "hard hearted" (much like our "stout-hearted"). The implications of this is that possibly it means that when God says, I will harden Pharaoh’s heart,” what it means is that God is allowing Pharaoh to make his own decisions. As I mentioned before, YHWH is letting the king do exactly what he wants, and the way they would say that is that God was making Pharaoh’s heart hard—that God was letting Pharaoh be as “level-headed” as he wanted to be, which in this case was leading his people into disaster. God was not to be blamed for forcing Pharaoh to reject Israel. That’s not what was going on.

Any of these could be true, and possibly more than one, but the one that is definitely wrong is the way most people read it—that God is forcing Pharaoh to do things the king doesn't want to do, and then God blames Pharaoh for what God made him do in the first place and then punishes him for it. That’s the one that’s untrue.

> Why do you choose the tradition that is represented by the lesser number of verses, especially when this tradition would limit YHVH's omnipotence?

I'm not choosing a tradition, but exegeting the texts. What I choose is the intent of the text and what it is teaching us, not counting the verses and ignoring the rest.