Board index ‹ Noah's Ark & the Flood

[Gauge]

REALLY great video I found last night that debunks multiple atheist viewpoints on alleged "Biblical inaccuracies" and such, if you have the time to watch it. It also deals with some translational issues that ALL of our Bibles have today which are important to keep in mind, and also shares some speculation on the origin of the Jews' beliefs which are in contradiction to the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE

[jimwalton]

Very interesting video. Thanks for the link. I have a few comments.

Since we don't know when the Flood was and have no reliable timeline to gauge it, it's quite impossible to say. I will say a few things, though.

Genealogies in the ancient world were viewed differently than we view them. They never tried (or thought they should) include every generation. They were often telescoped (many generations left out) for their political or religious purposes. You can't just "do the math" and come up with the date, which is what the video has done. We already have a problem.

Historians and biblical scholars generally put the Tower of Babel at 3000-2500 BC, in that range, and even as late as 2100. The Flood would have been well before that, but the Bible doesn't take a position on when the Flood was. Northern Shinar was settled starting around 5000 BC, so a date of the flood at 3000 is difficult to sustain. Nor do I agree that all the population of the world was living in Sumer at the time, nor that they all spoke one language. The Bible doesn't claim that. It speaks of the then-known world, and the Hebrew for "common speech" was "one set of words," which can be interpreted many ways.

Also, in a review of evidence from China, Japan, Australia, Thailand, North America, Mexico, and elsewhere, there is firm archaeological ground to support the conclusion that long before the tower of Babel men were scattered over the entire globe speaking a multitude of languages. That would give evidence that this story is not describing the origin of all languages, but rather a localized confusion of a major language in Mesopotamia—the land of Shinar.

He talks about Peleg in Gn. 10.25, but Gn. 10.5 speaks of multiple languages, as does 10.20, before Peleg. Nor is it "clear," as he marks it, that Peleg's name has to do with the Tower of Babel. There are multiple theories:

1. Refers to the division of the peoples of the earth as a result of the confusion of the languages at Babel. (Keil & Delitzsch, Morris, Whitcomb, Aalders, Leupold, Ross, Sailhamer, Hamilton, White, Jewish sources, Davis)
2. The Continental drift (Donald Grey Barnhouse, Northrup)
3. Widespread canalization of the land of Mesopotamia.
4. Semitic groups were divided into two branches: Pelegites and Joktanites

Though the Babel option is the most widely accepted and makes the most sense, it's not necessarily "clear."

Also, I don't believe in a global flood, but a massive regional one. "All" and "every" often don't mean globally "all or "every" in the biblical text (Gn. 41.57; Dt. 2.25; see also Acts 17.6; 19.35; 24.5). To me, putting the Flood at around 5500 BC, and it being regional makes more sense.

He correctly says that the Samaritan text, the LXX, and Paul all say that the 430 years includes the years in Canaan. But we have to be honest that the chronology of the era is extremely difficult to pin down, and many different positions are defensible.

I think he's making a decent case, but it's not as solid as he perceives it to be.

[Bart Simpson]

Thanks for all of that information. When I have time later I’m looking forward to digging into that more.

Question for you: there are “flood stories” (myth, legend, whatever genre) from nearly every corner of the world. I’ve read that many of them seem to be related to thawing from the previous ice age. There was (at least) one massive flood in North America but of course the date is hard to fix and there are similar stories from everywhere. Do you have anything to reference which relates flooding outside the regional (Mesopotamian) area?

[jimwalton]

I have in my notes this list of flood accounts from around the world:

* In the Sumerian legend of Eridu Genesis, Ea, the water god, warns that the human race is to be destroyed in a flood and Utnapishtim is warned to build an ark to save himself, his family, and pairs of animals
* In the Akkadian (Babylon) epic known as Atrahasis.
* In the Gilgamesh Epic (Babylon)
* In Greece it is Deucalion, king of Phthia in Thessaly, who, with his wife are saved from a flood.
* The Mayas have a similar legend
* The Quiche Mayas of Guatemala have a flood story
* The Aztecs have a legend of a flood
* The Hawaiian Noah is called Nu-u
* The Chinese Noah is called Nu Wah
* The Indian version tells of Manu, son of Vivasvat, being advised by a fish of the coming torrent. Manu builds a great ship
* Lithuania: Mannus
* Egypt: Atum sent the flood.

The source is from several articles

1. The first is called "Noah in America," and I didn't write anything else about it. Duh.
2. "The Timeless Earth", by Peter Kolosimo, Bantam Books, 1975
3. "Atlantic Rising" by Brad Steiger, 1973
4. "Histoire Inconnue Des Hommes" by Robert Charroux, 1963
5. "Not of This World" by Peter Kolosimo, 1973

I don't have any source material about how those stories are explained. I did a quick Wikipedia search (I know, not always the most reliable information)

* Deucalion: Greek mythology attributing the flood to Zeus
* Maya (and all Mesa-American flood stories): attributed to the gods. I can't tell on a quick scan if there was an actual geological event that prompted it, but it would be reasonable to assume so.
* Hawaii: He attributed the flood to the moon god, but the creator god, Kane, descended to Earth and explained his mistake.
* China has several well-known stories about megafloods. Geological events are somewhat common. (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-chinese-megaflood-may-be-fact-not-fiction/)
* India: The story comes from roughly 6th c. BC.
* Lithuania: The supreme god Pramzimas sent it. (http://levigilant.com/Bulfinch_Mythology/bulfinch.englishatheist.org/flood/Lithuanian-Flood.htm)
* Egypt: Atum destroyed the Earth.

There are plenty more accounts of great floods around the world:

Here's a list of flood stories (not necessarily myths): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

Here's another one: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

[Bart Simpson]

I appreciate you taking the time to get all that down. I’m looking forward to reading the material. (I had probably heard of half the Noah like stories you mentioned.) Thank you.