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[Shlitz]

Why was the Resurrection of Jesus necessary for our salvation?

Hello, my question is above. I do not doubt that it is necessary, however, I would appreciate if someone would explain why he needed to rise from the dead in order for our sins to be forgiven. I am confused, because I thought our sins were forgiven by his death: "By his wounds you are healed" (1 Peter 2:24). Obviously, Jesus' rising from the dead testifies to his power over death, but what I do not understand is why this was necessary for us to go to heaven. For example, I have heard people say that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, then our sins would not be forgiven. Thank you.

[jimwalton]

His resurrection showed His power over death and that death had been defeated. If He had died for our sins and stayed in the grave, the penalty would have been paid, but death would still be in effect. His resurrection is what undid death (1 Cor. 15.25-26).

1 Corinthians 15 also tells us that without the resurrection our faith is in vain, there is no resurrection for us, no future hope, and therefore no life with God.

> 1 Peter 2.24

It's certainly true that by His wounds we are healed. His death is what set us free from sin. Sin is often spoken of as a disease, and redemption from it as a restoration or healing. Jesus’s suffering brought us not only freedom from sin, but spiritual healing so that we are truly able to live the life Peter is teaching. We have not just been forgiven, but recreated. What was previously completely out of reach and impossible is now simple submission to the Spirit of God in us. Our healing makes us able, by the power of God.

> For example, I have heard people say that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, then our sins would not be forgiven.

1 Corinthians 15.17 says exactly that. While Christ’s death atoned for sins, his resurrection conquers them. And while sin may be atoned for, there is no life without the resurrection. The death of Christ has no atoning value if he did not rise from the dead. In that case he was only a man like other men and did not die for our sins (v. 3).

[Paul 11:49]

In agreement with what Jim said, 1Cor 15 tells us in no uncertain terms that the resurrection is essential for our forgiveness. It was at the cross that the heavy lifting of our salvation was done. But as our high priest, Jesus had to present His shed blood on our behalf in the courts of heaven in order to apply the merits of His death to us and make it official. And now, glorified, He sits at the right hand of the Father, ever-living to make intercession for us. Without this intercession of our High Priest we would have no chance. Much of this is covered in the book of Hebrews.

[Judo Jude]

> His resurrection showed His power over death and that death had been defeated.

What does this mean, exactly? Could God not "defeat" death before Jesus? How does having yourself tortured and murdered combat death in any way?

> If He had died for our sins and stayed in the grave, the penalty would have been paid, but death would still be in effect. His resurrection is what undid death

What was changed about death and dying by Jesus allegedly dying for a weekend? Seems to me that living things still die just the same as they probably always did.

I find that Christians are often too accustomed to repeating the same flowery language about how wonderful the crucifixion was, to the point where they're not communicating anything at all. Here's an example from the rest of your post:

It's certainly true that by His wounds we are healed. His death is what set us free from sin. Sin is often spoken of as a disease, and redemption from it as a restoration or healing. Jesus’s suffering brought us not only freedom from sin, but spiritual healing so that we are truly able to live the life Peter is teaching. We have not just been forgiven, but recreated. What was previously completely out of reach and impossible is now simple submission to the Spirit of God in us. Our healing makes us able, by the power of God.

There's basically nothing of substance to actually discuss here. No explanation of how this process works or why it was necessary, just a repetition of the message I remember hearing as a small child.

Why did Jesus have to suffer in order for God to provide mankind with a new route to salvation? He didn't. That's just the theatrics that God allegedly decided to show off.

[jimwalton]

> What does this mean, exactly? Could God not "defeat" death before Jesus?

The only way to show that you are able to break out of a prison is if you are in the prison. It does no good to brag about it, or even plan it. Thoughts and plans on paper don't cut it. You have to go into the prison and then prove you can get out. That's how you defeat the security system.

The only way to defeat death was from inside of death, i.e., from a position of being dead. That's how you defeat it.

> How does having yourself tortured and murdered combat death in any way?

It doesn't. Rising again from the dead is what proved death to be too weak to hold him.

> What was changed about death and dying by Jesus allegedly dying for a weekend?

Because nobody comes back from the dead. Nobody. I've been at plenty of funerals. Nobody rises out of their coffin. Death is inevitable for all of us. When Jesus came back from the dead, he proved that death couldn't hold him. He was stronger than it, and it conquered it. The difference now, according to 1 Corinthians 15, is that Jesus's resurrection proves (1) death is defeated, (2) Jesus is alive, (3) our resurrection after death is therefore also guaranteed. There really is an afterlife.

> to the point where they're not communicating anything at all. ... There's basically nothing of substance to actually discuss here.

Let me try again, then. The greatest problem in life is that we are separated from God (and his life and love). We are enslaved by what the Bible calls sin: our alienation from God and our nature that perpetuates the alienation. That's what we need fixed (to be healed). It's like a disease, and it needs medicine and surgery, or a miracle. That's what Jesus's death does for us: it heals us. This is the goal of life: to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. It's not just a healing, but a chance to start over, almost like being re-created or re-born. A new life.

> Why did Jesus have to suffer in order for God to provide mankind with a new route to salvation? He didn't.

He didn't have to suffer for us to be freed from sin and death, he just had to die and rise again. But to show us that he understood what it meant to be human, to experience suffering and evil, and to go through what we go through, he chose to suffer a terrible thing. It's wasn't theatrics or showing off, but truly sharing our humanity.

[Judo Jude]

> The only way to show that you are able to break out of a prison is if you are in the prison. It does no good to brag about it, or even plan it. Thoughts and plans on paper don't cut it. You have to go into the prison and then prove you can get out. That's how you defeat the security system.

Unless you're an all-powerful god, then you can demonstrate anything by any method you'd like.

God could make all humans aware of any message he chose without even snapping his proverbial fingers.. but instead, he has to set everything up to look suspiciously like a weird fairy tale, similar to other man-made myths from that area in that time.

> The only way to defeat death was from inside of death, i.e., from a position of being dead. That's how you defeat it.

What does it even mean to "defeat death"? Death isn't a competitor to be defeated, it's a natural process that apparently your god intentionally designed.

Further, why did Jesus have to be dead to "defeat death"? He supposedly resurrected people from the dead in the New Testament. Was this not good enough?

> It doesn't. Rising again from the dead is what proved death to be too weak to hold him.

Why did he need to prove that "death" was "too weak to hold him"?

> The difference now, according to 1 Corinthians 15, is that Jesus's resurrection proves (1) death is defeated, (2) Jesus is alive, (3) our resurrection after death is therefore also guaranteed. There really is an afterlife.

1 and 2 are unsupported claims with no verifiable evidence. 3 does not follow, even if we assume 1 and 2 are true.

> Let me try again, then. The greatest problem in life is that we are separated from God (and his life and love). We are enslaved by what the Bible calls sin: our alienation from God and our nature that perpetuates the alienation. That's what we need fixed (to be healed). It's like a disease, and it needs medicine and surgery, or a miracle. That's what Jesus's death does for us: it heals us. This is the goal of life: to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. It's not just a healing, but a chance to start over, almost like being re-created or re-born. A new life.

Jesus' torture and execution are in no way related to humans living better lives. There is no connection whatsoever between those things.

If God thinks we need a medicine to fix us, he could do it in any way he chooses, being that he's an all-powerful creator deity. He could wiggle a fishbone in front of a mirror and accomplish the same thing if he wanted.

> He didn't have to suffer for us to be freed from sin and death, he just had to die and rise again. But to show us that he understood what it meant to be human, to experience suffering and evil, and to go through what we go through, he chose to suffer a terrible thing. It's wasn't theatrics or showing off, but truly sharing our humanity.

Barely.

I'm not impressed by God taking a human form for a handful of years and allowing himself to be tortured and temporarily killed.. while he knows the future and knows he is immortal, and is the sole designer of all pain and human behavior. Big whoop, average humans suffer far more than that every single day.

Also, what do the other resurrections in the Bible and other mythologies mean for Jesus' resurrection? Lazarus came back from the dead, why does that not count as "defeating death"? What about the random dead people who rose and walked around in Matthew 27:53?

Here's the truth: Christians have built up Jesus' supposed resurrection to be some loving, heroic act of sacrifice.. but it isn't, and it never happened. This religion is so obsessed with the poetry and symbolism that it can't see how silly and absurd the plot is here. It's like Game of Thrones fanboys who can't admit that Season 8 sucks.

[jimwalton]

> Unless you're an all-powerful god, then you can demonstrate anything by any method you'd like.

I do get a little weary of this argument, though it's not your fault. There's a widespread misunderstanding of what it means that God is all-powerful. There are many things that an all-powerful God can't do; all-powerful doesn't mean God can do anything, demonstrate anything, or use any method He likes.

* He can’t do what is logically absurd or contradictory (like make a square circle or a married bachelor)
* He can’t act contrary to his nature. Self-contradiction is not possible. He can only be self-consistent, and not self-contradictory.
* He cannot fail to do what he has promised. That would mean God is flawed.
* He cannot interfere with the freedom of man. Luke 13.34. If God can override human free will, then we are not free at all.
* He cannot change the past. Time by definition is linear in one direction only.

Instead, "all-powerful" means God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. It is no contradiction that God is able to bring about whatever is possible, no matter how many possibilities there are. The omnipotence of God is all-sufficient power. He can never be overwhelmed, exhausted, or contained. He is able to overcome apparently insurmountable problems. He has complete power over nature, though often he lets nature take its course, because that’s what He created it to do. He has power over the course of history, though he chooses to use that power only as he wills. He has the power to change human personality, but only as individuals allow, since He cannot interfere with the freedom of man. He has the power to conquer death and sin, and to save a human soul for eternity. He has power over the spiritual realm. What all of this means is that God’s will is never frustrated. What he chooses to do, he accomplishes, for he has the ability to do it.

> but instead, he has to set everything up to look suspiciously like a weird fairy tale, similar to other man-made myths from that area in that time.

Actually, it didn't look anything like a weird fairy tale to those who were there. Instead, it was reported as reality (historical). It only looks like a weird fairy tale to cynical people who living in the era after the Enlightenment who have lost any sense of the spiritual realm and falsely reject anything not provable by the empirical sciences (a position, by the way, which is self-contradictory).

And as far as mythology, many people misunderstand mythology as being the spiritual superstitions of ignorant people. In reality, however, mythography was cultural imagery set in fantastical language to express theological concepts. Though mythography often adopts a narrative form by recounting events (Zeus having a battle, for instance), it is generally not interested in those events as events that can be connected with the real world. They use mythographical narrative to explain the core reality of their beliefs and perspectives. In fact, myth is imagery that is intended to describe *function* and *relationship* to other elements of the cosmos, not *mechanisms* or *phenomena*. Classifying the sun as a god doesn’t describe what it’s made of or whom it is, but rather what it does: it delineates order for the Earth (days, seasons, fertility). It was not an attempt to portray historical events but rather theological concepts.

The Bible contains no mythographic literature,

> What does it even mean to "defeat death"?

Two things are inevitable in life: death and taxes. Not one of us "beats" death. It will come to me and to you. But the Bible promises that those who belong to Jesus will live forever. Well, in that case death needs to be overcome so that our physical death is not final word—not the end of us.

> Death isn't a competitor to be defeated, it's a natural process that apparently your god intentionally designed.

Sure, God designed physical death; it's a necessary part of the system of nature. It's spiritual death that is a competitor to the life that is in God. God never designed nor intended spiritual death. That's what Genesis 2-3 is about. God intended us to have spiritual life to live in relationship with Him forever. But our sin erected a barrier to that plan, and brought spiritual death into the world (Romans 5.12-21). Now it is a competitor—an enemy to be conquered.

> Further, why did Jesus have to be dead to "defeat death"? He supposedly resurrected people from the dead in the New Testament. Was this not good enough?

I already explained in my previous post: "The only way to show that you are able to break out of a prison is if you are in the prison. It does no good to brag about it, or even plan it. Thoughts and plans on paper don't cut it. You have to go into the prison and then prove you can get out. That's how you defeat the security system. The only way to defeat death was from inside of death, i.e., from a position of being dead. That's how you defeat it."

> He supposedly resurrected people from the dead in the New Testament. Was this not good enough?

Right, it was not good enough. They just died again X years later. His raising them to more physical life was only a sign to those watching and to all those in subsequent history.

> Why did he need to prove that "death" was "too weak to hold him"?

He didn't need to prove it. It wasn't an argument or a bet. He needed to actually DO it. The way to conquer death is to be stronger than it: to come back from the dead.

> 1 and 2 are unsupported claims with no verifiable evidence. 3 does not follow, even if we assume 1 and 2 are true.

1 & 2 (that death is defeated and Jesus is alive) is supported by Jesus's resurrection complete with verifiable evidence. It was a historical event seen by eyewitnesses with the accompanying evidences that can be examined and weighed.

3 (our resurrection after death is therefore also guaranteed) is a logical conclusion from 1 & 2: (A) if death is defeatable and (B) has in fact been defeated, then (C) the likelihood that death will not be the final word for us is also plausible.

> Jesus' torture and execution are in no way related to humans living better lives

You're right. It has absolutely nothing to do with living better lives. What it has to do with is being freed from sin and entering a relationship with God.

> If God thinks we need a medicine to fix us, he could do it in any way he chooses, being that he's an all-powerful creator deity.

We're back to the misunderstanding of omnipotence. God can only do things according to the nature of things. He can't be self-contradictory, and He can't treat reality as unreality. Death is very real with very real consequences. There are certain ways it has to be dealt with, just as you can't go around the rules of math to solve problems. Reality necessitates that sin, which results in death, can only be dealt with by undoing the very real power of death in the only way possible to accomplish that: resurrection.

> He could wiggle a fishbone in front of a mirror and accomplish the same thing if he wanted.

Nope.

> Also, what do the other resurrections in the Bible and other mythologies mean for Jesus' resurrection? Lazarus came back from the dead, why does that not count as "defeating death"?

The other resurrections in the Bible show that Jesus had the power over death, but it's one thing to raise another person, but it's quite a distinct thing to raise oneself.

The other mythologies are so vastly different from the biblical narrative of Jesus's resurrection, it's almost ludicrous to put them in the same paragraph. If you've studied the ancient texts, these events are nothing alike.

* Tammuz (ancient Sumer). Tammuz was the shepherd god of 3000 BC, worshipped as the god of agriculture. His "death" was mourned every autumn, and his resurrection at planting season every spring. Nothing like Jesus.
* Baal (storm/fertility god of Canaan). Baal and Mot (the god of death) were bitter enemies. Because of Mot's strength, Baal spent 6 months in the underworld each year, but "rose from the dead" so people could plant their crops every spring. It's just the agricultural cycle. Nothing like Jesus.
* Egypt (Osiris and Horus). Also the agricultural cycle. Nothing like Jesus.
* Dionysus (Greek god of wine). Dionysus was born when Zeus impregnated Semele, a mortal woman. Hera, the wife of Zeus, found out about this and in her jealousy tricked Zeus into showing himself in his true form to Semele, who was promptly burned to a crisp by the divine glory. Zeus managed to rescue the unborn Dionysus from her womb and sew the fetus into his leg until it was time for him to be born. After his birth, Hera convinced the Titans to rip him to pieces, but Rhea, one of the Titans, felt sorry for him and brought him back to life. Dionysus thenceforth hid in the mountains and forests, whence his worshipers went to conduct wild revels in his honor. His death and rebirth came to be associated with the pruning of grapevines and their eventual fruit-bearing in the spring. Nothing like Jesus.
* Adonis (god of physical beauty; male counterpart of Aphrodite). He was killed by a boar. Zeus settled a quarrel between Aphrodite and Persephone by decreeing that Adonis would spend half of the year aboveground with Aphrodite and half in the underworld with Persephone. Celebrations of his death and rebirth were associated with the agricultural cycle in much the same way as those of Tammuz in Egypt. Nothing like Jesus.
* Persephone. Was kidnaped by Hades and spirited away to the underworld, upon which her mother became so angry that she kept the crops from growing. Zeus finally negotiated a peace whereby Persephone could join Hades as queen of the underworld for four months each year, but for eight months would be free to delight her mother, who would then give life to the earth. Nothing like Jesus.
* Attis (shepherd god of Phrygians). Conceived when a virgin put a magic almond in her breast. He grew into a beautiful youth, beloved of Cybele, but when she revealed her true glory to him he went mad and castrated himself, for which reason his priests also made themselves eunuchs. Another version of the tale has him killed by a boar but raised three days later. Like Adonis and Tammuz, festivals celebrating Attis correspond to the agricultural year with the death and rebirth of the land. Nothing like Jesus.
* Krishna. The famous avatar of Vishnu is sometimes cited as one who died and rose again, but his return is not a resurrection, but an example of reincarnation.

So there's nothing in mythology like the resurrection of Jesus.

> What about the random dead people who rose and walked around in Matthew 27:53?

They weren't random people, but the saints of old. These are an example that resurrection is real.

> Christians have built up Jesus' supposed resurrection to be some loving, heroic act of sacrifice

Actually, the evidence is examinable to result in not only a credible case, but a plausible one.

> but it isn't, and it never happened

You need to substantiate this, then, with your case and the evidence to support it. The case for the resurrection has evidences and quite a bit of plausibility. I'll need to see your case to give any weight to what you are claiming.