Board index ‹ The Apostles – Jesus's Disciples

[Redacted]

So, I know in the bible it says he killed himself out of guilt. But without Judas, Jesus would not have been sacrificed. So, was Judas a Devine tool used by God? He unknowingly did Gods will right? So, I guess what I'm getting to is. Would/should Judas be damned for what he did to Jesus? If so, why?

This problem has been bothering me for a long time now.

[jimwalton]

Judas made his choice by himself. He had free will to do what he did, and he is accountable for that decision and the consequent actions.

If we read Romans 9.14-33, we learn that even those who are evil, ignorant, misshapen, and rebellious have a chance, through their own free will, to turn to the Lord and be remade as new creations. Jesus appealed to Judas over and over, especially at the Last Supper, washing his feet and dipping the bread with him. Judas had every opportunity to turn, exercise his free will, and be godly. But he didn’t.

But, as we all know, the whole story would unravel if Judas didn’t betray him. Here’s the deal: Judas was a betrayer long before Jesus picked him up. He was chosen as a disciple as a betrayer. We know that Judas skimmed off the money purse, betraying his own discipleship group. God didn’t force Judas to do what he did, but the conclusion was certain. Judas was a known betrayer, but Jesus chose him anyway to be part of the 12. Even so, there was always an opportunity for him to not do it. Judas chose what he did.

Let’s take Peter in contrast. There was also a prophecy that Peter would deny, and that Peter would fall away, and what Jesus said about that was, "Satan wants to sift you like wheat, but I will pray for you." In other words, Peter had the same choice. Peter chose what Judas could have: Peter chose to turn back. Judas didn't. So he's accountable and will face the consequences for his actions.

[Joel Blazing Pants]

But it was planned from the beginning that he would do it.

What would God have done if he chose not to?

[jimwalton]

We understand that God is outside of time. It's not like he watches it unfold from where He stands, each thought and action determined and just playing itself out. Instead, people have verifiably authentic free will, and God watches it all happen from the side as if He's right there watching it in real time.

Suppose you and I were at an ice cream shop, and I could pop forward in time to see what you were going to buy. My knowledge of what you were going to pick doesn't mean I made you do it. I saw it.

I guess I have to ask where the Bible says it was planned from the beginning. It was known, but where's the evidence is was planned (as if Judas didn't have a choice)? I'm just curious where you're getting that.

> What would God have done if he chose not to?

This is an irrational perspective. God, who is outside of time, was able to watch Judas chose this in real-time, so there's no scenario where God would have to adjust had Judas chosen not to. Like my ice cream illustration, I watched you make your own free-will choice. It doesn't make sense to ask, "Well, what if I had chosen something different?" I would have seen that instead, then. I saw reality, not possibility. Same with God.

[Joel Blazing Pants]

> I were at an ice cream shop, and I could pop forward in time to see what you were going to buy. My knowledge of what you were going to pick doesn't mean I made you do it. I saw it.
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You didn't make me do it, but I still didn't have a real choice. That's the problem with the idea of having a set future, if we don't have the capacity to change it, we are like a ball rolling on a track. It may seem like we are moving on our own for anything within the track, but for everyone outside of it, you know exactly what's going to happen.
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> It was known, but where's the evidence is was planned (as if Judas didn't have a choice)? I'm just curious where you're getting that.
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If there is a hurricane coming and you evacuate, that's because you've planned for the hurricane to come. Even if you didn't directly make the hurricane come, you knew it would. It's still part of the plan. And if you knew something is going to happen and you have the power to stop it but don't, you either want it to happen or don't care if it does. So God wanted Judas to betray Jesus, even making it more so a part of the plan.
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> This is an irrational perspective. God, who is outside of time, was able to watch Judas chose this in real-time, so there's no scenario where God would have to adjust had Judas chosen not to.
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If it's impossible for anyone to chose anything differently than what the future is already set to hold, then by all practical accounts, free will itself is an illusion shown only because we are on the track and not looking on the outside.
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Free Will is the ability to make different choices, if the future only allows for one choice, and it was set thousands of years before you were even born, then Free Will doesn't exist.

[jimwalton]

> You didn't make me do it, but I still didn't have a real choice.

Of course you had a choice. You had a choice whether I saw it or not. You could have picked whatever you wanted, and you did. My seeing it didn't affect anything except now I knew what you were going to freely choose because I saw you do it.

> That's the problem with the idea of having a set future,

You don't have a set future. There's nothing in the Bible that says you have a set future. What the Bible teaches is that God knows what you'll do because He sees you do it, not because He made you do it. You are free agent to choose whatever you want, and God watches and therefore knows.

> And if you knew something is going to happen and you have the power to stop it but don't

Here's a theological mistake. God can't interfere with your free will (or it's not free will, like if I force you to love me, it's not love at all). Free will can't be determined. So God can't "stop it." God cannot interfere with free will any more than He can make a square circle or a married bachelor. It's not free if God can stop it.

> If it's impossible for anyone to chose anything differently than what the future is already set to hold, then by all practical accounts, free will itself is an illusion shown only because we are on the track and not looking on the outside.

This would be correct if the future was determined, "already set to hold." But there's nothing in the Bible that teaches that. The Bible teaches we make our choices as free agents and God, who is outside of time, is able to watch us do it, and therefore knows what we choose. Free will is real, not an illusion. God's knowledge is complete but not deteminative. Knowledge has no causative force; only power has that. Knowing something causes nothing; doing something is what causes things.

> Free Will is the ability to make different choices

Correct.

> if the future only allows for one choice, and it was set thousands of years before you were even born, then Free Will doesn't exist.

Right, and this is not a biblical idea. The future allows for all choices, and none of them are set thousands of years before you were born. Choice is very real. God is able to see all time as if it's the present. He knows because He saw it, not because he only allowed one choice and set it on hold before you were born. Not so. You can't just make up your own theology; we go by what the Bible actually teaches.