Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Romans

[Wicker]

I've been thinking about the link between sin and death. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Wouldn’t it follow that once our bodies die, we pay the wage, thus fulfilling the penalty?

One might say it’s a spiritual death, but how can an eternal spirit die? And if death just means spiritual separation from God, why would God have to become a man to make an atonement, since the body doesn’t factor into the equation?

[jimwalton]

In Romans 6.23, both "death" and "life" are eternal, which tells us he's not talking about physical death ("once our bodies die"). In Romans, Paul treats death as something that is not morally neutral. In Romans, death metaphorically involves a life characterized by bondage (an inclination) to sin. Sin operates through members of the body. "Death" in Romans is generally (and not here either) not the expiration of the body.

> One might say it’s a spiritual death, but how can an eternal spirit die?

Death is a separation from life. Physically speaking, it's when we expire. But even in the Bible, physical death is not a cessation but rather a transition. Spiritually speaking, God is life. Spiritual death is a separation from God.

> And if death just means spiritual separation from God, why would God have to become a man to make an atonement, since the body doesn’t factor into the equation?

The body does factor into the equation. Spiritual death came into existence when a physical historical man chose to make himself the center of order and wisdom in God's place. A human being created a wall of separation between humanity and God on the basis of a choice oriented to self. The only way to break the power of death must also, then, come through a human being. That's where the problem started, that's where it lies, and that's where it needs to be undone.

[Wicker]

> In Romans, death metaphorically involves a life characterized by bondage (an inclination) to sin. Sin operates through members of the body. "Death" in Romans is generally (and not here either) not the expiration of the body.

It sounds like that just means the consequence of sin is sin. And the consequence of not sinning is not sinning. Please explain a bit more if you can. Where does hell factor in here?

> Spiritual death came into existence when a physical historical man chose to make himself the center of order and wisdom in God's place.

I think one thing that is confusing me is the term death. I understand death as a cessation. I think you’re telling me death means separation. I’ll try to stick with that term.

So let me try to work through this again. So when Adam sinned he became separated from God. Was this separation an action of Adam, or an action or judgement of God?

[jimwalton]

> It sounds like that just means the consequence of sin is sin.

I see where you might think that, but the text is clear that the consequence of sin is death. It's also a common- enough theme in the New Testament (as in James 1.15). The "consequence" part is expressed by the noun "wages." "Wages" is the payout from the input. You work, and you get wages in exchange for—as a result of—your work. You sin, and the consequence or result of that is death. While sin promises no harm, and more fun, and who cares, the actual payout for it is death, not neutrality.

> Where does hell factor in here?

Hell is the ultimate and final separation. You are born separated from God (not, as many people falsely believe the Bible teaches: born evil). But you sin, because the natural expression of your life is not directed towards God. And those sins are just racking up a paycheck of "death" at the end of the pay period (at the end of life).

But all through life you've had opportunity to turn from death to life. Jesus invites you to come to Him, be forgiven for your sin, and no longer be a slave to it. He will put His Spirit in you so you can live in Christ rather than in your sins. Anyone can do this any time: just come to Jesus and be made new. If you don't do that, then you are choosing separation from God.

> I think one thing that is confusing me is the term death. I understand death as a cessation. I think you’re telling me death means separation. I’ll try to stick with that term.

Death in the Bible is always a transition to another form of existence. It's never a cessation. After physical death, which is a transition, there will be a "second death," a final death (that's still not a cessation), for all who have refused to let the life of Jesus come into them (Rev. 20.11-15). Those will be transitioned to yet another form of existence—a complete separation from God.

> So when Adam sinned he became separated from God. Was this separation an action of Adam, or an action or judgement of God?

It was an action of Adam's. Suppose this: A teenager decides he doesn't want to live under the rules of my house anymore and chooses to leave to be his own caretaker and make his own rules. When he leaves I don't really need to say, "You're not living here anymore." That's a duh. Of course he isn't living here anymore. But as a parent I would say, just as God says to us all: "You're welcome back anytime. Please come back to me. I'll keep your room ready for you. I love you." But if he doesn't come back, he's the one who effected the separation and continues it, and I'm not to blame if he doesn't come back. He makes his own choices. My door is always open to him to turn around and return to my waiting arms.