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[Eli's Coming]

How does one go about punishing a soul for eternity? I feel that an important aspect of punishment/ torture is the threat and fear of the unknown amount of pain that will be inflicted, or that whatever comes next will be worse than that before. As a certain method of punishment is repeated, doesn’t the punishment become less effective because the result is known? Is each successive punishment worse than the one before? How would this continue for eternity? With no hope to an end of the punishment, wouldn’t the soul become numb to their torture given enough time?

[jimwalton]

The basic principle behind hell is justice: people who do bad stuff shouldn't just get away with it. There have to be (or should be) consequences for negative behavior.

The second principle behind hell is something the Bible is firm about: God is a smart being and He will be perfectly fair with everyone. The Bible tells us that God is perfectly fair, that He takes all kinds of things into account (access to information, moral state, environment, motives, etc.), and since He knows everything, He will make the absolute right decision and be perfectly fair with everyone.

> How does one go about punishing a soul for eternity?

God will not reward people more than what is right, and God will not punish people more than what is justified. We can be confident that God will not do anything in judgment that is unfair or undeserved. There is no need to get tied up in knots about how cruel God is or how unfair, since both are impossible.

People get so hung up on hell. As you read the Gospels, Jesus spoke often about hell, but no one ever asked him about it. Isn't that odd? Nobody said, "Hey, whoa, rewind. What happens to people who don't believe? What happens to people who never heard? Isn't eternal judgment for temporal crime unfair? Explain this to us." Very interesting. Here's the real deal about eternity, what the Bible is SO emphatic about: God will be perfectly fair with everyone. There is no need for anxiety that God has created a system of horror, that people will be judged unfairly, that injustices will be done and people will be sent inappropriately somewhere, or that God will somehow go against his attributes just to torture people.

Hell is more about separation than it is about torture, although it paints the picture that separation from God is torturous. We're not to think physical fire; fire is an image of agony. (Similarly, we are not think of heaven as harps and gold; there are images of shalom.)

> I feel that an important aspect of punishment/ torture is the threat and fear of the unknown amount of pain that will be inflicted, or that whatever comes next will be worse than that before.

If there really is agony from being separated from God, we'd be pretty ticked to stand in front of Jesus after death to say, "Hey, y'know, somebody should-a mentioned something about this before now. This would have been good to know yesterday!" And yet then we fault God for hanging the threat and fear of hell over our heads. I guess He can't win, eh?

So here's your warning: being separated from God in the afterlife isn't going to be a party with your friends. It is portrayed in the most serious sense in the Bible by the most undesirable images their language had.

> Is each successive punishment worse than the one before?

The Bible gives no notion of successive punishments. It does give hints of degrees of punishment (so that the punishment fits the crime, no more and no less, but nothing about successive punishments.

> How would this continue for eternity? With no hope to an end of the punishment, wouldn’t the soul become numb to their torture given enough time?

Interesting line of thought. I think not. If hell is about separation, not physical torment or torture, that may never subside. You hear about people who have lost children, say, to agonizing things like school shootings, and that emptiness and pain never subsides. Now, granted, they get used to their absence and move on with their lives, but the pain is always there. Given that the afterlife isn't physical or emotional but is the essence of ultimate reality, I think I can say that there won't be any numbness over time.

Let's talk more, though.

[Vivian]

Not a Christian, but I’ve genuinely never considered why no one asked Jesus specifically about Hell. Good point I’ve never thought about.

[Socks]

So what you're saying is that "We shouldn't be scared of hell because it's justified"? Well, for 1 I don't think it's justified, but even if I did I would still be scared of it, pain is bad.

[jimwalton]

> So what you're saying is that "We shouldn't be scared of hell because it's justified"?

My goodness, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that you'll get exactly what is appropriate for you to get.

> for 1 I don't think it's justified

Every criminal in prison claims to be innocent, too. Opinions (or denial) don't determine guilt and justified punishment, facts and truth do in correspondence to reality.

> pain is bad.

Sometimes pain is good. It motivates me to move my hand away from a hot range, or to let go of a hot pot handle. Sometimes pain in my leg motivates me to take care of the cut there so I don't get an infection. Sometimes pain motivates me to go to the doctor to find out what's wrong, and even on occasion to volunteer for painful surgery to correct it. Pain isn't always bad.

As far as the pain of punishment, that's exactly the point. Punishment that is cushy and comfortable, with benefits and joys, isn't punishment at all.

[Socks]

> What I'm saying is that you'll get exactly what is appropriate for you to get.

How is it appropriate to be tortured forever even though I've committed no crimes?

> Opinions (or denial) don't determine guilt and justified punishment, facts and truth do in correspondence to reality.

Why are god's opinions factual?

> Sometimes pain is good. It motivates me to move my hand away from a hot range, or to let go of a hot pot handle. Sometimes pain in my leg motivates me to take care of the cut there so I don't get an infection.

But hell never ends, the pain of hell isn't a motivation to get better, once you're in hell it's impossible for you to get better because you can never escape.

What's the use in a punishment if the person being punished will never get better? It just seems like needless sadism to me.

[jimwalton]

> How is it appropriate to be tortured forever even though I've committed no crimes?

Who said anything about crime? What you're guilty of is refusing to acknowledge the truth and therefore not living according to the truth you deny and refuse to acknowledge.

Suppose you claim that COVID is made-up, that it's not real, it's just somebody's fairytale to control people (and we both know that some people are actually saying this). And so because of that belief you are not careful, you expose yourself to the virus and die (as did the Cameroon pastor, among others). You pay the penalty for refusing to acknowledge the truth and therefore not living according to the truth you deny. And you suffer the consequences of that.

> Why are god's opinions factual?

Since God is defined as a non-embodied personal spirit who exists as omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, and necessarily so, then God doesn't have opinions. He is truth.

> But hell never ends

You should know that not every Christian subscribes to this belief. There are theories about reconcilationism, semi-restorationism, modified eternalism, and annihilationism, all with some kind of scriptural backing. In other words, hell isn't necessarily eternal for all who enter it. It may only be eternal for those who refuse to be reconciled.

• Matthew 11.22-24 & Luke 10.12: Jesus says it will be “more tolerable” for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than for the people of Capernaum. That would indicate to me a more harsh punishment and a less harsh punishment.
• Matthew 23.14: Jesus tells the Pharisees they will be punished more severely for the way they are deceiving the people and living as hypocrites.
• Revelation 20.13: Each is going to be judged according to what he has done. Since that is the case, then the punishments and rewards can’t be the same for everybody.
• and finally, Luke 12.47-48 (workers are punished with more or fewer blows). There are degrees of punishment, and even sins of ignorance are treated differently than sins of intention.

Why I bother to point this out is because often those who consider hell to be unfair are picturing the same punishment for all, which is most likely not the case, and infinite punishment for finite crimes, which may also not be the case. People will be punished according to the works they have done (2 Corinthians 5.10).

Don't get hung up on your concept of God's unfairness. One thing the Bible is perfectly clear about: God will be fair. Everyone will get what is exactly is appropriate.

If you're concerned about never escaping, then take the necessary steps to have a relationship with God so that hell is not in your future. Come to God. He invites you to Himself, to a love relationship of belonging and forgiveness. The choice is yours; free will is not only existent but also operative. So choose to come to God.

> What's the use in a punishment if the person being punished will never get better?

Certainly you're aware that we send certain criminals to jail for life. The point is not rehabilitation, but justice. It's not sadism, it's justice. Justice is about morality, harmony, and balance, not sadism.

[Socks]

> Who said anything about crime? What you're guilty of is refusing to acknowledge the truth and therefore not living according to the truth you deny and refuse to acknowledge.

But why does that mean I'm worthy of eternal suffering?

> And so because of that belief you are not careful, you expose yourself to the virus and die

But that's different, Coronavirus is just an uncontrollable force of nature, god can control things, he can literally do anything, he doesn't need to cause needless suffering.

> You should know that not every Christian subscribes to this belief. There are theories about reconcilationism, semi-restorationism, modified eternalism, and annihilationism

But those aren't what I was raised on.

> Don't get hung up on your concept of God's unfairness. One thing the Bible is perfectly clear about: God will be fair. Everyone will get what is exactly is appropriate.

No, he isn't, being tortured is never fair.

Even people like Hitler shouldn't be tortured, just killed, that would be much simpler and more justified.

> If you're concerned about never escaping, then take the necessary steps to have a relationship with God so that hell is not in your future. Come to God.

I don't like god, he is evil by my moral standards, he commanded my death.

> He invites you to Himself, to a love relationship of belonging and forgiveness.

How does he "love" me if he wants me to die?

What have I done to need forgiveness? I haven't done anything wrong.

> Certainly you're aware that we send certain criminals to jail for life.

Yes, I think this is wrong.

> The point is not rehabilitation

It should be.

> It's not sadism, it's justice.

Torturing, raping, and burning someone for eternity is not justice.

[jimwalton]

> But why does that mean I'm worthy of eternal suffering?

Well, the first thing I said is that it might not be eternal. Second, you have denied ultimate truth and reality. Third, hell is separation from God. From your responses I can surmise that you're not currently interested in a relationship with God, so how can you complain about not being forced to love Him and to be with a God you have no desire to be with?

> Coronavirus is just an uncontrollable force of nature, god can control things,

God can't control your free will, or it wouldn't be free.

> he can literally do anything

No He can't. That's not what "omnipotence" means. He can't create square circles, married bachelors, or free will that isn't free. God can't sin, He can't lie, He can't be unfaithful. God can't be self-contradictory. God can't be logically absurd. There are lots of things God can't do.

> But those aren't what I was raised on.

It doesn't matter what you were raised on. We seek the truth. The truth is what matters. That's what we're always trying to get at. My issue here is that you seem to think God has the cruel streak and He's going to be unfair, and we know both of these are impossible.

> No, he isn't, being tortured is never fair.

Who said hell was torture? Not the Bible. The Bible says it's torment. There is quite a difference. Torture is at the hand of the perpetrator. Torment can be the doing of the person themselves. If you go to hell, it's because you are making a choice to reject God and reject truth. That's your choice and your doing, not God's fault. It is God's desire that no one go to hell. Hell was created for Satan and his angels, not for people. If you go to hell, it's on your shoulders. If you don't want to be with God, then you choose existence without Him.

> I don't like god, he is evil by my moral standards, he commanded my death

Then you are seeing God wrong and distorting the truth. God didn't command your death. Death came by human action, and if you choose against God, who is life, you are commanding your own death.

> How does he "love" me if he wants me to die?

He doesn't want you to die. He invites you into relationship with Him so that death is not in your future. But love can't be forced; you have to choose to love God.

> I haven't done anything wrong.

Really. You've never ever lied, been inappropriately anger, never felt even the smallest tinge of pride, greed, jealousy? You've never used another person for your own ends? Never cheated, ever? Never stolen anything? Never disrespectful to your parents? Seriously?

>> Certainly you're aware that we send certain criminals to jail for life.

> Yes, I think this is wrong.

Really? So even violent, unrehabilitated criminals should be just...let go?

>> The point is not rehabilitation

> It should be.

Rehabilitation is great when it happens, and is worth shooting for. We have learned it's not always possible.

> Torturing, raping, and burning someone for eternity is not justice.

As I said, God doesn't torture people. You are tormented in hell because of your own doing and your own choices.

Rape? Are you kidding me? The Bible never says ANYWHERE anything about God raping people in hell. My goodness, this is out of nowhere.

Burning? Fire is an image. Hell isn't fire anymore than heaven is clouds.

[Socks]

> so how can you complain about not being forced to love Him and to be with a God you have no desire to be with?

Why does god only give us 2 choices? To either be with him (Which sounds horrible) or be tortured (Which also sounds horrible)

> God can't control your free will

I never told him to, I don't know where you got that from.

> No He can't. There are lots of things God can't do.

So he's weak? Why call him a god?

> It doesn't matter what you were raised on. We seek the truth.

I think that this is the truth of Christianity, though.

> Who said hell was torture? Not the Bible. The Bible says it's torment. There is quite a difference. Torture is at the hand of the perpetrator.

Exactly, god is torturing us, he is burning us forever, he's the one lighting the ovens in hell, right?

> If you go to hell, it's because you are making a choice to reject God and reject truth. That's your choice and your doing

No, it's 100% god's fault, he's the one who created hell and makes souls go there, he could take me to heaven if he wanted, but he doesn't.

> Then you are seeing God wrong and distorting the truth. God didn't command your death.

Yes he did, Leviticus 20:13, he commanded my death.

> He doesn't want you to die.

Okay, then why does he put me in hell? Like you were talking about earlier, why can't he just annihilate me? I would prefer that.

> You've never ever lied, been inappropriately anger, never felt even the smallest tinge of pride, greed, jealousy?

Of course I have, but those are just base animal nature, it's not evil.

> You've never used another person for your own ends? Never cheated, ever? Never stolen anything?

No, that would hurt people or break the law.

> Never disrespectful to your parents?

I have.

> Really? So even violent, unrehabilitated criminals should be just...let go?

No, death penalty.

> Rehabilitation is great when it happens, and is worth shooting for. We have learned it's not always possible.

But if god can create any possibility, can he not rehabilitate everyone?

> Rape? Are you kidding me? The Bible never says ANYWHERE anything about God raping people in hell. My goodness, this is out of nowhere.

As a child I asked my Aunt "What is hell" and she said "It is a place of eternal suffering, damnation, and fear"

I fear rape, and if hell is fear, then that will happen to me.

> Burning? Fire is an image. Hell isn't fire anymore than heaven is clouds.

Okay, then what is hell? Because the bible says it's fire.