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[Aerator]

What is the fate of racist Christians after their deaths?

I'm sure you've all seen the B&W pictures of black Americans getting lynched surrounded by mass of white Southerners who are supposedly devout Christians looking on - or that picture of black students as they were entering previously segregated high school being protected by the National Guards from a mob of angry white Southerners.

Do you as a Christian think all of those Christian Southerners are in hell?

How about slave owners?

If no to both of the above, how is Christian morality any better if it is just a product of the culture and period? Are black Christians in heaven supposed to tolerate the presence of the same people who beaten, killed, and/or maimed them when they were still alive? If racist Christians are no longer racist/evil after their death, then what is the point of it when we can just have that as the starting point?

[jimwalton]

The Bible is clear that people who have given their lives to Jesus are the ones who enter heaven, and people who have not don't. Racism is not the deciding factor, any more than pride, greed, anger, and a thousand other sins that are common to humanity.

So saying, we will all be held accountable to what we do in life (2 Cor. 5.10). People who are racist will face the judging consequences for that sin just as will people who are proud, greedy, given to sexual sin, etc.

The other factor to consider is that cultural Christianity ("I call myself a Christian because I'm an American") is not real Christianity ("I've given my heart and soul to Jesus to honor Him with my life and to give Him my love and devotion"). I would guess that many people who were so called Christians but were hateful and racist (like the KKK) were not truly Christians at all.

> If no to both of the above, how is Christian morality any better if it is just a product of the culture and period?

Christianity is not a system of morality, though Christians should be moral. Christianity is the way to have a relationship with God. As you read through the Bible, you'll see that God does not dictate the shape of society. He does not seek to form a “perfect” society, because no society is perfect (since it is a society of fallen humans). He rather speaks into the shape of society as it exists in those times and encourages his people to live holy lives in that society. He does not dictate an ideal kind of government (monarchy vs. democracy); he does not dictate a system of marriage (arranged vs. love) or even polygamy vs. monogamy; he does not dictate the way that a society is stratified (slaves and free); he does not dictate a certain sort of economy (market economy vs. barter). Every social structure is flawed. This is neither to excuse or justify slavery or racism, but only to say that such things are not the determinants of who goes to heaven.

> Are black Christians in heaven supposed to tolerate the presence of the same people who beaten, killed, and/or maimed them when they were still alive?

In heaven our minds will be made right. Those who beat and killed blacks out of racism (if such people are even in heaven) will be penitent. Those who were mistreated will be forgiving, for all will be made right. Justice will prevail, and people will get exactly what they deserve. Those who honored themselves will be brought low, and those who were oppressed will be exalted.

> If racist Christians are no longer racist/evil after their death, then what is the point of it when we can just have that as the starting point?

We COULD just have that as the starting point, but some people are capable of amazing brutality and cruelty. They make their choices, and they will pay for their sins.

[Aerator]

> In heaven our minds will be made right. Those who beat and killed blacks out of racism (if such people are even in heaven) will be penitent.

So what happens to free will?

> We COULD just have that as the starting point, but some people are capable of amazing brutality and cruelty. They make their choices, and they will pay for their sins.

I'm talking about how if God can dispense evil and free will just so, then why bother with the whole pretense. Just start with that whole set-up and not bother with creating people who would have ended up in hell (God should know who will end up in hell). It all just sounds so capricious on God's part to have a set-up a system where He knows billions will suffer for eternity so that free will can be granted for a bit and then taken away for no good reason.

[jimwalton]

> So what happens to free will?

There is no one in heaven who has not submitted their will to God's will. And if we freely submit our wills, they we have acted with free will, but now God has our permission and endorsement to conform our wills to His.

> I'm talking about how if God can dispense evil and free will just so, then why bother with the whole pretense.

First of all, it's not pretense. There's nothing pretentious about it. God doesn't dispense with free will, as I just explained. As far as dispensing with evil, God cannot just wave a magic wand. This isn't Disney, but instead it's reality. Evil has to be dealt with according to principles of reality, and it has to be dealt with in a way that truly deals with something that is real.

> Just start with that whole set-up and not bother with creating people who would have ended up in hell

Without free will we would not be human. We wouldn't be able to reason, there would be no science, no love, no kindness. God can't create people without free will, because then we wouldn't be people. For free will to be free, then people have to truly be just as free to make wrong decisions as right ones. So God presents the truth, is clear about the consequences of compliance or defiance, gives everything that is necessary to comply, and continually pulls, urges, informs, and reminds about the means and benefits of compliance as well as the means and detriments of defiance. It's necessary to life as we know it. In the future, when our wills have been totally submitted to Him, a different reality is possible.

> God should know who will end up in hell

Yes.

> It all just sounds so capricious on God's part

There's nothing capricious about it. It's both rational and real. You can't have reality that isn't real. Again, it's not Disneyland or the movies.

> to have a set-up a system where He knows billions will suffer for eternity

If you are truly concerned, you will come to God and become part of the billions of voices urging people to also come to God and accept the truth.

C.S. Lewis makes some interesting observations about hell. I'll reword them and summarize some of them here: You object to the doctrine of hell. What are you asking God to do? To wipe out past sins at all costs and to give anyone who wants it a fresh start, smoothing difficulties and offering help? But He has DONE that. That's what his death and resurrection were all about. OK, then, are you asking God to forgive you? It's a RELATIONSHIP. He will forgive anyone who wants it, and cannot forgive those who choose not to be forgiven. To leave you alone then? Well, I'm afraid that's what hell is.

If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If there is a way that must be found by the will, and by love, then it must be possible to refuse it. If the happiness of a person is honestly the result of self-surrender, then no one can make that decision except himself, and he may refuse. I would love to say everyone will be saved. But then I'd have to ask, "Will they be saved against their will, or with it?" If I say "against their will," I'm in the middle of a contradiction; how can self-surrender and love be involuntary? But if the answer is "With their will," it begs the question: "What if they will not give in?"

> It all just sounds so capricious on God's part to have a set-up a system where He knows billions will suffer for eternity so that free will can be granted for a bit and then taken away for no good reason.

This is an assembly of misguided thoughts and illogic. First of all, God's not capricious. This follows logic, reality, and justice. Second, you chide Him for allegedly setting up an unfair system, but one of the many things the Bible is firm on is that God won't do anything that isn't perfectly fair. It's not a bad system, it's people who use their free will make decisions that lead them straight into punishment. But we're used to seeing people who choose the wrong path to try to reach their dreams. People have an almost boundless capacity to destroy their own lives. But you can't have reality and fantasy in the same bowl. If you want to be human, and get to learn, choose, enjoy, have science, reason, and love, then you have to have the capacity to choose wrongly also. You can't have one without the other. You can't have free will that isn't free. I hope that's clear. God has designed a system that is practical, reasonable, and logical. If you insist on using it for your own demise, it's not the system that's the problem, nor the Designer of it, but those of us in it. "If a game is played, it must be possible to lose it. If there is a way that must be found by the will, and by love, then it must be possible to refuse it."

Your final misunderstanding in the sentence is that God takes away free will for no good reason. He doesn't take it away at all. We voluntarily submit our free wills to His, knowing that His knowledge, wisdom, love, and goodness will be the perfect fit for our free wills.