Board index ‹ Satan

[jimwalton]

According to what we read in the Bible, such things are not demonic activity. Instead, the person is a false prophet. We need to maintain the distinction the Bible maintains.

[Awesome]

You just said demons don’t lie. This is not biblical at all.

“For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.” ‭‭John‬ ‭8:44‬ ‭NLT‬‬

[jimwalton]

What you're showing me is that Satan (the devil) is a liar. We know Satan is a liar, and one of his main attributes is that he's a deceiver here in Jn. 8.44; also Rev. 12.9). But he is a different person than the demons. What I would be looking for is biblical evidence that demons lie. Can you show me that or those texts to support your claim?

[Awesome]

Satan is literally a demon. What are you talking about.

[jimwalton]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. The Bible never says he is a demon. If you know of a text that says so, let's talk about it. We don't know what kind of spirit being Satan is; that identification is never made for us in the Bible.

So what I'm hoping to find out from you is:

• Where does the Bible say demons lie?
• Where does the Bible say Satan is a demon?

I'm glad to discuss it with you, but we need the biblical facts first.

[Awesome]

Demon is a word to describe a fallen angel, which he is.

[jimwalton]

You're moving outside the Bible again. The Bible doesn't define demon as a fallen angel. Fallen angels are something quite different. And there is also no teaching that Satan is a fallen angel. We don't know what sort of spirit being Satan is.

So, we need some biblical facts. You still haven't answered me on the previous two, and now we have two more. If you want to discuss what the Bible teaches, we need the biblical facts first.

• Where does the Bible say demons lie?
• Where does the Bible say Satan is a demon?
• Where does the Bible say that a demon is fallen angel?
• Where does the Bible say Satan is a fallen angel?

I sense that you are speaking from tradition, but not from the Bible. For me, the Bible is my authority, not tradition. Let's stick to what the Bible actually teaches us. Let's keep talking, but let's talk about biblical teaching (where the authority is) rather than traditional thoughts. Can you answer the questions for me?

[Awesome]

“When the seventy-two disciples returned, they joyfully reported to him, “Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!” “Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭10:17-18‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:27‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Both of these verses include Satan as one of the demons. They don’t have to explicitly call him a demon, cause that was understood to be true.

“The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:3-4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7-9‬ ‭NLT‬‬

““How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.’ Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths. Everyone there will stare at you and ask, ‘Can this be the one who shook the earth and made the kingdoms of the world tremble? Is this the one who destroyed the world and made it into a wasteland? Is this the king who demolished the world’s greatest cities and had no mercy on his prisoners?’” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭14:12-17‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.” ‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

You don’t need the scriptures to blatantly call demons “fallen angels” but that’s what they are, angels cast out of heaven.
As for “what is Satan”

““Son of man, sing this funeral song for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign Lord: “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone— red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald— all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. “You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more.”” ‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭28:12-19‬ ‭NLT‬‬

He was a angel, one whose sin was pride. One who will someday exist no more. This is obviously not directed at a human and is understood to be about Satan.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for the conversation.

> Luke 10.17-18

It doesn't include Satan as one of the demons, nor does it identify Satan as a demon. The disciples cast out demons as agents of Satan. When a man directs his sheep dogs to corral cattle, that doesn't mean the man is one of the dogs. Jesus uses figurative language to show that the forces opposed to God are under attack. It's not like Satan has an office in heaven, and it's not like he could have been seen falling anywhere. Jesus uses the language to show the spiritual triumph of the disciples.

It doesn't show that demons lie, it doesn't show that Satan is a demon, it doesn't show that a demon is a fallen angel, and it doesn't show that Satan is a fallen angel. What's true is the Satan's influence is being diminished and that his kingdom is under attack by disciples of Christ.

> Matthew 12.27

This verse doesn't show that Satan is a demon. Jesus is saying that He is not using the power of Satan to drive them out, that's all. It doesn't show that demons lie, it doesn't show that Satan is a demon, it doesn't show that a demon is a fallen angel, and it doesn't show that Satan is a fallen angel.

> They don’t have to explicitly call him a demon, cause that was understood to be true.

This is my point. It's NOT understood to be true. It does have to be explicit. You are claiming something that the Bible doesn't teach.

> Revelation 12

The devil (Satan) has angels, for sure. But that's not what demons are. There is no such association in the Bible. There are fallen angels (Jude 1.6), and there are demons. The two are never associated with one another.

> Isaiah 14.12-17 & Ezekiel 28.12-19

It is strongly and deeply regarded by scholars nowadays that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 don't refer to Satan at all, but instead to the kings of Babylon and Tyre. Most modern scholars believe that Isaiah is using a well-known mythological tale as an analogy to the failure of the king of Babylon's rebellion and arrogance. The idea that the king would deify himself was common in the ancient world. The arrogance of the king of Babylon (like most ancient kings of powerful empires) is well-known. Isaiah poetically represents such arrogance ini common images of stars, sacred mountains, and divine councils. There's nothing in the text of Isaiah's brilliant poetry that can't refer to humans.

"The morning star" (Heb. helel) is a perfect title for a pompous king, especially for Babylon, which was a predominantly astrological culture. "Son of the dawn" is from Canaanite mythology where an exalted figure is dashed to the lowest depths. Babylon was a vast empire that collapsed quickly into ruin. The king sought to take his place in the divine council ("I will raise my throne above the stars of God), just as arrogant as the builders of the Tower of Babel (which doesn't refer to Satan).

I see no problem at all with taking this text as a poetic reference to a pompous line of kings. There are problems, however, with taking this as a reference to Satan.

1. From a contextual standpoint, Isaiah speaks against many nations and people groups. It's out of context to see this one as something different from that.

2. The OT shows very little (if any) theological understanding of Satan. There's every reason to see the author's intention as deriding the nations, not as giving of Satanology.

3. The text is more clearly about the pretense of human pride than it is about a character we know (almost exclusively from NT teachings) as Satan.

In Ezekiel 28, he's talking metaphorically about the king of Tyre. Scholars who say it's Satan usually state 3 reasons to support their case.

1. The king is in a garden. And yet there is no indication in the OT that the Israelites believed Satan was in the Garden of Eden. No OT passage equates or relates the serpent and Satan. For this to work as a metaphor, however, it must make reference to well known information. There is no evidence that Israel would have known that the serpent in Gn. 3 was a tool or representation of Satan. That being the case, they would not have placed Satan in the garden.

2. The king is identified as the cherub. And yet Scripture never suggests that Satan was ever a cherub. The cherubim are a special class of supernatural beings with specific functions. There is no basis for the speculation that Satan was once among their number, and certainly no reason to suggest that the Israelite audience would have recognized such a metaphorical allusion.

3. The passage alludes to a fall from a blameless condition. And yet the OT nowhere portrays Satan as a fallen being. Therefore, the fact that Ezk. 28 refers to a fall would not suggest to the Israelite reader that the author was metaphorically invoking the fall of Satan for comparison to the fate of the king of Tyre.

Dr. John Walton comments, "As we examine each of these in light of OT theology, however, the interpretation of this being as Satan becomes increasingly difficult to maintain. There is close parallelism in the text (12b-13 vs. 14-15a), suggesting two parallel metaphors (rather than a single one), and that the metaphors don’t extend to the fall, but only refer to the high station of the individual. The king of Tyre enjoyed a lofty status because of all that was entrusted to him; he was the guardian of extensive natural resources, just as the individuals in the two metaphors were. Unfortunately, he was corrupted by them and was found to be treacherous and irresponsible. The metaphor ends where the parallelism ends, and from vv. 15b-19 the king's conduct and punishment are addressed (though the end of v. 16 refers back to the metaphor). Thus there is no reason to reach beyond the context and its metaphors for a sensible interpretation of the passage."

[Awesome]

As someone who has prayed over people tormented by demons and been present when I hear those demonic voices speaking lies out of their mouths and then seen those same people set free by the power of God from that spiritual bondage...I'm pretty done with this conversation.

You are talking about things you apparently have no real world expiriance with. I've done spiritual warfare in person, been a part of prayer teams battling the demonic. Your "intellectual arguments" will not sway me from what I have seen first hand. Demons lie, they torment people with their constant lies. "God doesn't love you, you are worthless" Don't tell me those are truths they tell those they torment. To think they don't lie is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.