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[Just Browsing]

In your scenario though, a reasonable, sane judge would never accept the innocent brother’s offer to be killed in place of the guilty brother. That would be totally unjust. He would send the guilty brother off to be killed because that is what’s fair and deserved.

[jimwalton]

As I mentioned, the situation of Jesus dying for our sins is more like paying a debt owed to someone else. In reality, the fair salary for the work of sin is death. Therefore death is the only way justice can be satisfied. In this case, Jesus volunteered to step in to take the penalty in our place. If you want to refuse and take the electric chair or the firing squad for yourself, you're welcome to do that. But in this case—the true situation—somebody HAS to die. Jesus steps up next to you and makes the offer. What will you do with His offer? If you ignore it, that's on you. If you accept it, it's now on Him. That's the true situation, all of your analogies aside.

[Kronos]

Didn't god condemn all future generations of humanity for the sin of Adam & Eve?

[jimwalton]

Nope. We are each condemned for our own sin. Deuteronomy 24.16: "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

Romans 5.12 says, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." You see it? Yes sin entered the world through one man, but death came to all people because ALL sinned. 2 Corinthians 5.10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." We are condemned for our own sin, not for the sin of Adam & Eve.

[Just Browsing]

“God let’s things take their course.”

But if he’s omniscient and he designed everything, then he knew exactly how it would all play out. He knew that teenager would kill all those women. He knew that as a result of how he designed humans and physics and all that, that eventually that would inevitably happen and yet he still allowed those conditions to be present that would allow the accident to happen

[jimwalton]

> He knew how it would play out, but He didn't make it play out that way. People live their lives and make their decisions.

I explained that allowing situations to play themselves out is the only reasonable way to do things. Otherwise, we are not human and there is no sense to anything. That's certainly not a desirable world. Yes, suffering happens, but it's no indictment on God. Otherwise, as I've said, it's not "life" at all, but pure nonsense.

> yet he still allowed those conditions to be present that would allow the accident to happen

That's like blaming God for gravity, so if someone's foot slips and they fall, God is to blame. That's ignoring that gravity is necessary for life. It's also just taking one side: if you want to blame God for all suffering, then you must also credit God for all positive things: laughter, joy, happiness, comfort, health, knowledge, beauty. If God is to be blamed for the conditions that allow accidents, He must also be credited for the conditions that allow happiness.

So where are you at with this? Are you ready to credit God with all happiness and knowledge? Do you understand that a life without the possibility of suffering is not life at all? The world has to be dynamic—it's actually a huge benefit and necessary. For God to take the possibilities of anything going wrong out of life is to remove all the things that make life something we live.

[Just Browsing]

But if the brother volunteered ...

... did he?

That is, did Jesus deliberately go to the Romans, completely of his own volition and not forced into the situation in any capacity, and ask for them to kill him on everyone's behalf?

Not to mention, what kind of messed up judge would defer a death sentence for a criminal because some other random person decided to take their place?

[jimwalton]

> ... did he?

Absolutely yes. Jesus said in John 10.17-18: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

> Not to mention, what kind of messed up judge would defer a death sentence for a criminal because some other random person decided to take their place?

You're still stuck in your flawed analogy. If you want to stay in it, though, haven't you seen plenty of movies and TV shows where someone in the family is guilty, so someone else in the family fabricates that he or she did the crime so the son/wife/husband/daughter can go free—where the parents lies for the kid to take the punishment in their place? That's the situation here (well, it's still a flawed analogy, but I'll go with it for your sake). Jesus steps up to take your punishment for you. Aren't you grateful that He has done that? If you were Otto Warmbier, and the North Korean government arrested you for defacing posters with anti-government graffiti—hey, if someone decided to take your place, you'd let him and run for the border as fast as you could.

Here we have Jesus, offering to give His life for you. And you're complaining that it's not fair and you want to face the gallows by yourself? Jesus is offering to take the punishment for you.

[Just Browsing]

The issue isn’t that “someone has to die” unless god is just itching to exact punishment on someone, regardless of who.

The issue is that the offending person has to be served justice for what they did. Not just anyone, because that would defeat the point. What will your son learn if you allow your daughter to take the fall? He’ll learn that he should keep playing soccer in the house because he can get away with it

[jimwalton]

> The issue isn’t that “someone has to die” unless god is just itching to exact punishment on someone, regardless of who.

No, God isn't itching to exact punishment. As a matter of fact, the Bible explicitly says that it grieves God to punish people. Lamentations 3.33 says "For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." But no honest or worthwhile judge can turn a blind eye to evil.

> The issue is that the offending person has to be served justice for what they did.

Yes, this is what we mean by justice: people are accountable for what they have done. But in this case it's not just a prison sentence or a fine, but DEATH. And in this case, it doesn't defeat the point that Jesus is willing to die in our place. As a matter of fact, it's the biggest act of grace and mercy conceivable.

> What will your son learn if you allow your daughter to take the fall? He’ll learn that he should keep playing soccer in the house because he can get away with it

That's one possibility, if the son is selfish, ignorant, and seeing what he can get away with. There's another way to look at it, though: The son could be grateful and learn what mercy is. So which it is depends if your heart is selfish and callous or whether your heart is open to compassion and truth.